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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

To: daraymond@iowatelecom.net
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!
From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 11:36:44 -0400
List-post: <mailto:topband@contesting.com>
I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced CW for 
my DXing.

I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M DXCCs 
worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY for.

I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big part of 
his DX diet.

DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour. Right 
now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there are no 
problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the rate can 
drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may alleviate (through 
parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem from bringing 
everything to a halt.

Tim N3QE

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM, <daraymond@iowatelecom.net> 
> <daraymond@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
> 
> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, 
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to 
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.           73. . 
> .Dave, W0FLS
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!
> 
> Hello Gang
> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
> may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
> 
> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so 
> well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a 
> few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
> appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
> 
> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
> 
> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me 
> here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
> another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there 
> calling among the NA stations.
> 
> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
> his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
> copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
> heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - 
> so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
> 
> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going 
> to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following 
> its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also 
> be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
> 
> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
> conceived including:
> 
> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
> elements
> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
> this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any 
> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
> 
> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
> managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
> 
> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to 
> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone 
> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode 
> uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly 
> right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to 
> function in order to complete qso's.
> 
> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a 
> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay 
> close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to 
> have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
> 
> So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to 
> Topband?
> 
> The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer 
> on 6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during the 
> summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be a 
> great E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW in 
> late June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the 
> production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its 
> potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was 
> immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.
> 
> 
> Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
> station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 
> everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so well on 6M - 
> even on E skip paths.  And since I did not have FT8 capability - I was 
> TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!
> 
> 
> So how does this apply to Topband?  Pls read on.....
> 
> 
> Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert was 
> back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z - again on 
> FT8 - in dx'pedition mode.  By now, most of us had downloaded the dx'pedition 
> mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do the parameter 
> settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.
> 
> 
> I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few 
> others.
> 
> 
> Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT still 
> has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software - 
> because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet possible - but I think 
> the throughput rate will one day improve materially.  (:Last night the 
> throughput was SO SLOW that some suggested to Norbert that he stop using 
> dx'pedition mode in favor of the more reliable current release of FT8 that is 
> on the air today.)
> 
> 
> Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those 
> constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those without 
> FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of this transpire. 
>  My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again!  This is 6M E season "DEJA 
> VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to Ft8 was now happening all over 
> again - but this time on 160M - and it suggests a real possibility of it 
> becoming the choice of major dxpeditions going forward - meaning - FT8 is 
> likely to be used on 160m far more regularly going forward and  CW mode 
> utilized much less perhaps (maybe!).  My crystal ball is no better than yours 
> - but if FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by K1JT and becomes more 
> EFFICIENT one day than CW mode - you can be SURE that it will become very 
> popular and it will get used far more (at the expense of CW) by the rarer 
> Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to Topband!
> 
> 
> You can take that to the BANK!
> 
> At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some of the 
> comments he was seeing by others on CHAT.  Basically, while he was more than 
> courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY!  I am the FOX here.....I get 
> to choose to operate whatever mode I think will work - and those sitting in 
> their comfortable chairs back at home (and not sitting in the heat here on 
> the shores of Lake Malawi - really do not get to decide this.!!  Again, I am 
> the FOX here.......)  Basically, Norbert was right on here - IMHO....
> 
> Some more observations:
> 
> 1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should - at 
> least not yet all the time - for example:  K8KZ was clearly seeing 7Q7EI 
> calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the software linked up 
> at  each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal that the QSO was complete.
> 
> And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before they 
> linked up to finalize and log the QSO.  I had similar problems on 160M when 
> working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more work to do,. But, we 
> do have to realize that this is still only a BETA/experimental release - and 
> YES - it does have some glitches and bugs yet to be ironed out.
> 
> But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better - and 
> WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do think we will 
> witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when working future 
> DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M - which is happening every 
> night on 1840 today.  I am seeing Wal W8LRL most every night - and am 
> dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam VY2HH - so old dawgs (like me) are 
> being forced (sometimes kicking and screaming) to learn new tricks.
> 
> One final comment:
> 
> This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past few 
> nights.  Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan) takes place on 
> 1840.  So I am hopeful that the migration to the new mode continues to take 
> place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW really will not mix well - 
> should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that will cause problems  - (just my 
> opinion) - but reality I think.
> 
> So - I think that is the lot for now.  Not much more to report - but for sure 
> - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT about it - I do 
> not think this is a passing FAD.  "DIGI-WIGI" or its other name "JINGLE 
> BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!!
> 
> 73 JEFF  K1ZM/VY2ZM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Briggs
> DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters
> Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering, Royal 
> Society of Great Britain, & Amazon
> 
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