George,
I understand and agree with most of what you say, but the sailboat analogy
is a bad one.
I can sail a boat alone. I can't have a QSO without someone else on the
same mode. The vacuum FT8 creates is the problem.
73, Tony K4QE
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 2:26 PM, GEORGE WALLNER <aa7jv@atlanticbb.net>
wrote:
> Dave,
> For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
> lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
> is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
> Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
> some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
> there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be
> a surprise.
> Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
> I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way
> outperform sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out
> there as before. They love sailing, not just getting there.
>
> C U on CW,
>
> George.
> AA7JV
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
> <daraymond@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
>
>> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
>> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
>> meaningless. The guy with a backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
>> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
>> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
>> and receive antennas. As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
>> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
>> little skill on the part of the operators. For me personally, it is
>> disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will. 73. .
>> .Dave, W0FLS
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband
>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
>> To: topband@contesting.com
>> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon
>> us!
>>
>> Hello Gang
>> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
>> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
>> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
>> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
>>
>> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
>> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
>> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
>> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Norbert has managed to make
>> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
>> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
>>
>> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on
>> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
>>
>> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
>> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and
>> me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been
>> another and a few more as well. I also heard some EU stations in there
>> calling among the NA stations.
>>
>> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN
>> on his side prevented a legitimate qso. I heard him fine but I know he did
>> not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST
>> noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's
>> on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
>>
>> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST chat and announced that he was
>> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
>> following its release by K1JT. I am told that the dx'pedition version of
>> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
>>
>> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is
>> fully conceived including:
>>
>> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required
>> QSO elements
>> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX
>> (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
>> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
>> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
>> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
>>
>> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m
>> and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
>>
>> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to
>> operate this new flavor of FT8. It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone
>> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition
>> mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things
>> exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect
>> traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
>>
>> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a
>> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay
>> close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game
>> to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
>>
>> So what is going on here exactly? And why did I choose to make this post
>> to Topband?
>>
>> The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past
>> summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season. I happen to like to work 6M E
>> during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped
>> would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe. I worked a couple of
>> stations on CW in late June but during the first or second week of July,
>> K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone
>> realized its potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA)
>> - where it was immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on
>> the Left Coast.
>>
>>
>> Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW
>> DX station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after
>> that - everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so
>> well on 6M - even on E skip paths. And since I did not have FT8 capability
>> - I was TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!
>>
>>
>> So how does this apply to Topband? Pls read on.....
>>
>>
>> Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert
>> was back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z -
>> again on FT8 - in dx'pedition mode. By now, most of us had downloaded the
>> dx'pedition mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do
>> the parameter settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.
>>
>>
>> I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few
>> others.
>>
>>
>> Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT
>> still has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software
>> - because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet possible - but I
>> think the throughput rate will one day improve materially. (:Last night
>> the throughput was SO SLOW that some suggested to Norbert that he stop
>> using dx'pedition mode in favor of the more reliable current release of FT8
>> that is on the air today.)
>>
>>
>> Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those
>> constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those
>> without FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of this
>> transpire. My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again! This is 6M E
>> season "DEJA VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to Ft8 was now
>> happening all over again - but this time on 160M - and it suggests a real
>> possibility of it becoming the choice of major dxpeditions going forward -
>> meaning - FT8 is likely to be used on 160m far more regularly going forward
>> and CW mode utilized much less perhaps (maybe!). My crystal ball is no
>> better than yours - but if FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by K1JT and
>> becomes more EFFICIENT one day than CW mode - you can be SURE that it will
>> become very popular and it will get used far more (at the expense of CW) by
>> the rarer Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to Topband!
>>
>>
>> You can take that to the BANK!
>>
>> At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some of
>> the comments he was seeing by others on CHAT. Basically, while he was more
>> than courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY! I am the FOX
>> here.....I get to choose to operate whatever mode I think will work - and
>> those sitting in their comfortable chairs back at home (and not sitting in
>> the heat here on the shores of Lake Malawi - really do not get to decide
>> this.!! Again, I am the FOX here.......) Basically, Norbert was right on
>> here - IMHO....
>>
>> Some more observations:
>>
>> 1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should - at
>> least not yet all the time - for example: K8KZ was clearly seeing 7Q7EI
>> calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the software linked
>> up at each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal that the QSO was
>> complete.
>>
>> And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before they
>> linked up to finalize and log the QSO. I had similar problems on 160M when
>> working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more work to do,. But,
>> we do have to realize that this is still only a BETA/experimental release -
>> and YES - it does have some glitches and bugs yet to be ironed out.
>>
>> But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better - and
>> WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do think we
>> will witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when working future
>> DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M - which is happening every
>> night on 1840 today. I am seeing Wal W8LRL most every night - and am
>> dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam VY2HH - so old dawgs (like me)
>> are being forced (sometimes kicking and screaming) to learn new tricks.
>>
>> One final comment:
>>
>> This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past
>> few nights. Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan) takes
>> place on 1840. So I am hopeful that the migration to the new mode
>> continues to take place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW really
>> will not mix well - should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that will cause
>> problems - (just my opinion) - but reality I think.
>>
>> So - I think that is the lot for now. Not much more to report - but for
>> sure - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT about it -
>> I do not think this is a passing FAD. "DIGI-WIGI" or its other name
>> "JINGLE BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!!
>>
>> 73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM
>>
>>
>> Jeff Briggs
>> DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters
>> Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering,
>> Royal Society of Great Britain, & Amazon
>>
>>
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