Hello George. . .
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don't believe most hams have any
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for hams
with limited facilities. The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in
and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner
as traditional contacts. To use your boat analogy below, it's like putting
a power boat in the same race with a sailboat. They both have their merits.
. .but they are simply two different things. That said, there will always
be people seeking equal recognition without having to make the effort. . .
that's become a given in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS
-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE WALLNER
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraymond@iowatelecom.net ; k1zm@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!
Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be a
surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way outperform
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.
C U on CW,
George.
AA7JV
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
<daraymond@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
meaningless. The guy with a backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large
antennas/arrays, and receive antennas. As for the DXpeditions, they will
quickly migrate to this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it
requires comparatively little skill on the part of the operators. For me
personally, it is disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it
will. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS
-----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon
us!
Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I
may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Norbert has managed to make
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and
me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
been another and a few more as well. I also heard some EU stations in
there calling among the NA stations.
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN
on his side prevented a legitimate qso. I heard him fine but I know he
did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST
noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's
on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST chat and announced that he was
going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
following its release by K1JT. I am told that the dx'pedition version of
FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully
conceived including:
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required
QSO elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX
(in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and
I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to
operate this new flavor of FT8. It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone
reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition
mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things
exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect
traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a
couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay
close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game
to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
So what is going on here exactly? And why did I choose to make this post
to Topband?
The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past
summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season. I happen to like to work 6M E
during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped
would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe. I worked a couple of
stations on CW in late June but during the first or second week of July,
K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost immediately
everyone realized its potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far
Western USA) - where it was immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA
and others on the Left Coast.
Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW
DX station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after
that - everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so
well on 6M - even on E skip paths. And since I did not have FT8
capability - I was TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing -
BUMMER!
So how does this apply to Topband? Pls read on.....
Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert
was back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z -
again on FT8 - in dx'pedition mode. By now, most of us had downloaded the
dx'pedition mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do
the parameter settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.
I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few
others.
Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT
still has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode
software - because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet possible -
but I think the throughput rate will one day improve materially. (:Last
night the throughput was SO SLOW that some suggested to Norbert that he
stop using dx'pedition mode in favor of the more reliable current release
of FT8 that is on the air today.)
Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those
constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those
without FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of this
transpire. My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again! This is 6M
E season "DEJA VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to Ft8 was now
happening all over again - but this time on 160M - and it suggests a real
possibility of it becoming the choice of major dxpeditions going forward -
meaning - FT8 is likely to be used on 160m far more regularly going
forward and CW mode utilized much less perhaps (maybe!). My crystal ball
is no better than yours - but if FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by
K1JT and becomes more EFFICIENT one day than CW mode - you can be SURE
that it will become very popular and it will get used far more (at the
expense of CW) by the rarer Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to
Topband!
You can take that to the BANK!
At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some of
the comments he was seeing by others on CHAT. Basically, while he was
more than courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY! I am the FOX
here.....I get to choose to operate whatever mode I think will work - and
those sitting in their comfortable chairs back at home (and not sitting in
the heat here on the shores of Lake Malawi - really do not get to decide
this.!! Again, I am the FOX here.......) Basically, Norbert was right on
here - IMHO....
Some more observations:
1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should - at
least not yet all the time - for example: K8KZ was clearly seeing 7Q7EI
calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the software linked
up at each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal that the QSO was
complete.
And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before they
linked up to finalize and log the QSO. I had similar problems on 160M when
working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more work to do,. But,
we do have to realize that this is still only a BETA/experimental
release - and YES - it does have some glitches and bugs yet to be ironed
out.
But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better - and
WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do think we
will witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when working
future DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M - which is
happening every night on 1840 today. I am seeing Wal W8LRL most every
night - and am dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam VY2HH - so old
dawgs (like me) are being forced (sometimes kicking and screaming) to
learn new tricks.
One final comment:
This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past few
nights. Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan) takes place
on 1840. So I am hopeful that the migration to the new mode continues to
take place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW really will not mix
well - should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that will cause problems -
(just my opinion) - but reality I think.
So - I think that is the lot for now. Not much more to report - but for
sure - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT about
it - I do not think this is a passing FAD. "DIGI-WIGI" or its other name
"JINGLE BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!!
73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM
Jeff Briggs
DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters
Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering,
Royal Society of Great Britain, & Amazon
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