Several things are happening, Mike. For every solar system we fix, the
manufacturers learn how to make better product. Solar Edge, for example, has
been making incremental changes, to the point where the majority of their
standalone systems installed do not make enough noise to be deemed “harmful
interference.” In Tony’s case, Solar Edge ultimately determined that the
remaining problem was coming from the Tesla side of the equation and the FCC
you deem to be asleep prodded them into looking into it. The premise that
manufacturers are going to fix a system or three and not make design changes to
ensure that they do not have to fix a lot more of them is simply not true.
The League has very well publicized its RFI program, so amateurs should be
taking advantage of it.
Now, related to your other comment about the expense of testing, the costs to
ARRL are not all that significant. For the most part, the accurate
measurements we make are for conducted noise below 30 MHz, and that test takes
about an hour, including equipment set up. The test fixture is in a room
dedicated to that purpose, so it is plug and play. For radiated above 30 MHz,
we are somewhat less accurate, although the use of a commercial bicon antenna
with known antenna factors and spectrum analyzers capable of making the same
measurements as seen in the standards gets us pretty close if we measure in the
open side lot next to HQ. To be a lab that sells services intended to be used
for certification purposes, the lab needs to go through quite an expensive
certification process on its own. The ARRL Lab simply needs to be able to make
measurements sufficiently accurate and credible enough to warrant a formal
complaint to FCC.
We do NOT want to hang our hats only on measurements. As said, most devices we
have measured have met the FCC limits. The issue is one of actual
interference. What the ARRL Lab does is to verify the credibility of reports,
and try to use existing processes to see if the problem can be resolved without
FCC help. You can argue that this should be the job of the FCC, but that is
simply not going to happen, nor do we want FCC staff to be taking reports that,
by their very nature, turn out to be incorrect in the first place. It would
take only a handful of misidentified interference complaints to have the FCC
start throwing them all into the circular file. Once it has been determined
that the interference is severe enough that the FCC would act on it (ie, not a
3 db increase in noise, because noises do come and go in the FCC’s mind – and
in reality), the correct source has been identified and that the responsible
parties will not be responsible, the FCC does take some action. This was hard
won, built bit by bit over many years of time.
As to actual enforcement, the FCC will not issue a Citation or a Notice of
Apparent Liability without the approval of the full FCC Commissioners. In the
long run, bringing that level of the FCC amateur cases could very well
backfire, in ways we don’t even want to imagine. Over time, the FCC process is
improving, and more of its staff are paying more attention, so letting that run
its course is the best course of action with an agency known for its slowness.
If instant answers are demanded, the FCC may give them, and we almost certainly
would not like their answer.
Ed, W1RFI
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
________________________________
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> on behalf of Mike
Fatchett W0MU <w0mu@w0mu.com>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 12:24:28 PM
To: rfi@contesting.com <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] New ARRL Mission statement > Was solar fix
I think we have learned from the last couple of Presidential elections
that anything is possible.
Why would we want to discourage people from actually organizing a grass
roots movement and make our case heard. Maybe the ARRL is going to take
a stronger stance or are we just getting more lip service from the upper
brass. It is like the anti FT mode crowd that attempts to discourage
people from operating a mode that they like. A mode that is vastly more
popular than any other currently.
There is nothing stopping these products from being purchased, used or
installed. Two or three people or 10 will not make the difference. For
every Solar installation that "we" fix, how many dirty ones were
installed yesterday or the last month. All of that noise is still
there. It raises the noise floor. It impacts users of the bands that
probably have no idea how to solve it.
We do not educate people very well on what to look for and how to report
noise. What would it take for the FCC to wake up? 10 reports a day
100, 1000? I bet they get very few a month.
There has been a change in the attitude of those attempting to solve
power line RFI. I put in a complaint to a system that I am not on and
the man in charge came to my house and has been very helpful. 20 years
ago it probably would have taken a complaint to the FCC and Public
Utilities Commission. Maybe this is not true for all areas but it does
seem true for parts of Colorado where I continue to good things.
K3LR-It is pretty hard to take out politics from the equation. The ARRL
is political, the FCC is political, Congress is political and most every
one of us is political. Even selecting contest managers seems to be
political.
When we quit we have lost.
W0MU
On 7/27/2024 11:32 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 7/27/2024 9:52 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
>>
>> While getting the FCC to change may be hard, I think we need to try.
>
> While I admire your attitude, and share it about many issues, Ed Hare
> is absolutely right -- this is not one we can ever hope to win. Ed and
> I both have long followed the politics of this -- Ed from the
> perspective of being the League's presence on the national and
> international level of EMC, and me from the much broader perspective
> of electoral politics in general and the overwhelming influence of big
> money that has increased exponentially during my lifetime. We are not,
> and never will be, even a flea on the pimple of the ass of the beast.
>
> There was once a wise man who taught us to fight for what we can
> change, accept what we can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.
> (I'm paraphrasing, and have forgotten which wise man it was.)
>
> What we CAN do is what W0LEV and NA6O have been doing -- testing
> suspect products before buying -- and taking defective stuff back to
> vendors and getting our money back. And talking to mfrs of noisy
> products when they are accessible; Ed can tell us about that. At least
> 20 years ago, I found someone intelligent at Lutron to talk to about
> their dimmers, some of them were much quieter than other products.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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