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Re: [VHFcontesting] FT4 Mode

To: VHF Contesters <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] FT4 Mode
From: Mark Spencer <mark@alignedsolutions.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 16:17:37 -0700
List-post: <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
I am glad someone else agrees with me about the potential effects of AGC  in 
this context (:

73

Mark S
VE7AFZ


mark@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On May 2, 2019, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Dietz <w5prchuck@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don’t use AGC on FT8 for the reasons you expressed plus that without it, 
> you can decode weaker signals. After all, it is a weak signal mode. 
> 
> Chuck W5PR 
> 
>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 5:28 PM Mark Spencer <mark@alignedsolutions.com> 
>> wrote:
>> From a VHF contesting perspective I'm not completely convinced that all 
>> signals will always be decoded on a crowded FT8 "channel" with a mixture of 
>> very weak and very strong signals.   
>> 
>> I'm thinking receiver AGC (if it is used) and or the dynamic range of 
>> typical "sound cards" may lead to very weak signals not being decoded if 
>> there are very strong signals present at the same time as very weak signals ?
>> 
>> As I can't  control how other operators configure their equipment or what 
>> near by signals they may have to deal with, I am not hugely enthused about 
>> running FT8 from out of the way locations during contests as I am concerned 
>> my weak signals may not be decoded in practice during typical contest band 
>> conditions.
>> 
>> I am aware that some operators In out of the way places have tried running 
>> FT8 on "different frequencies" which in my view would go a long way to 
>> addressing my concerns but my understanding is most other stations were 
>> reluctant to QSY.
>> 
>> The opinions and experiences of others may differ from mine.   To be 
>> transparent I haven't put a huge amount of thought into this matter and if 
>> anyone fundamentally disagree with I have written I'd be happy to discuss 
>> further (preferably off list) in case I am missing something.
>> 
>> I suspect my use case may be rather unique.
>> 
>> 73
>> 
>> Mark S
>> VE7AFZ
>> 
>> mark@alignedsolutions.com
>> 604 762 4099
>> 
>> Mark Spencer
>> 
>> Aligned Solutions Co.
>> mark@alignedsolutions.com
>> 604 762 4099
>> > On May 2, 2019, at 11:19 AM, Michael Clarson <wv2zow@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Jay: The argument that SSB is so much faster than FT8/4 and stations should
>> > switch to SSB when the band is open is not universally true. It is if you
>> > are the station running guys on a specific frequency, but NOT if you are
>> > one of the poorer equipped calling the running station.  When running low
>> > power, it will often take 10 or more minutes to work a station on SSB when
>> > the band is open -- I am competing with many stations with better signals
>> > than me. But, on FT8/4, everyone gets decoded, and my rate actually goes
>> > up. --Mike, WV2ZOW
>> > 
>> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jay RM <w9rm@calmesapartners.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> The 'need for FT speed' reflects the huge QSO/hour disadvantage FT8 has vs
>> >> SSB when the band is open.  Many 6M op's have foolishly abandoned SSB
>> >> during contests, so the introduction of FT4 is an attempt to speed things
>> >> up a bit.  We'll see whether the mode can ultimately live up to it's
>> >> promise.  With all the mouse movements and click-click required, I doubt
>> >> FT4 will perform anywhere near as well as an experienced human op using
>> >> SSB.  We will see.
>> >> 
>> >> Remember,  FT4 is advertised as a 'contesting' mode.  The idea of a 
>> >> contest
>> >> is to maximize your score.  The best way to maximize a score is to run
>> >> contacts as fast as possible over the duration of the contest.  So, one
>> >> should use the fastest mode for the given conditions.  When the band is
>> >> closed or marginal, you want to use the most sensitive mode.  This could 
>> >> be
>> >> JT65 if the potential contact base is limited or FT8 if there are many 
>> >> weak
>> >> stations to work (or CW, of course).  As the band opens, there will be a
>> >> point where the intelligent operator needs to make a switch from
>> >> 'sensitivity' to 'speed'.  Should this switch be FT8 to FT4 ?  No, because
>> >> SSB is faster and certainly sensitive enough during a Es opening.
>> >> 
>> >> If this is the case, why does FT4 really exist as a contest mode ?  It's
>> >> not as good for weak signals as FT8 and it's most likely not as fast as
>> >> SSB.  "Because we can" is not a sufficient answer for something that has
>> >> shown the capability to totally upset the status quo of an entire band in 
>> >> a
>> >> negative way (condensing an entire band full of  operators on to what is
>> >> realistically one frequency).
>> >> 
>> >> -W9RM
>> >> 
>> >> Keith Morehouse
>> > 
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