I worked very little DX on 6M until FT8 so there is still something more going
on than you have discovered in your testing.
Cecil
K5DL
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 3, 2019, at 4:23 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com> wrote:
>
> Have you attempted to open a conversation with the creators of the mode and
> discuss what you are seeing? They seem like they are quite knowledgeable.
> How can you disprove their claims of weak signal mode when you are not sure
> how they are coming up with their numbers?
>
> I never heard EU or JA on 160 until I tried FT8 last year. I never once
> heard any dx on CW last season although many tried as the devout 6M ops have
> a chat room where there were countless tries on other modes but only contacts
> made on FT8. Why is that? No longer do you have to have stacks or H frames
> to work Gud DX on 6m.
>
> W0MU
>
>
>> On 8/3/2019 1:28 PM, K4SAV wrote:
>> There is growing trend on 160 that I find disturbing and that is for major
>> DXpedition to use FT8 for all or mostly all 160 operations. They do that
>> because they "know" that FT8 is ideally suited for weak signal operation.
>> They have read that and are continually told that by everyone. Rare
>> countries on 160 is synonymous with weak signals and poor signal to noise
>> ratios.
>>
>> I know of no one that has done the same tests that I posted to Topband. I
>> have had people agree with me but that was because they liked my answers,
>> not because it agreed with their measurements. I have had many people tell
>> me I am wrong and they sited the official documentation as proof that my
>> measurement were wrong.
>>
>> So if you would like to join the ranks of myth busters, start doing some
>> measuring. WARNING, Myth busting of all types in ham radio is a never
>> ending effort. As soon as you bust one, two posts later someone will repeat
>> it again. Sorry, I don't have any caps, pins, or t-shirts to sell.
>>
>> If enough people start characterizing this mode maybe the more experienced
>> people in radio will sit up and take notice. One or two posts by a single
>> person isn't going to do it.
>>
>> You are not going to kill FT8 no matter what you do or how feel about it.
>> It will always be a home for those they can't copy CW, and for those that
>> don't like CW, and for a few others for a variety of reasons. I can't see a
>> problem with that. The problem I see is with FT8 and major DXpeditions. I
>> also see some FT8 only DXpeditions but those are usually vacation part time
>> to non-rare countries. Can't worry about those.
>>
>> For people that can't copy CW, FT8 is very attractive. It will allow them
>> to work some DX on 160. In the winter I see Europe appearing on FT8, so
>> that can be worked from the eastern US. Invariably when I measure the
>> strength of those stations, they are close to S6. That would be arm chair
>> copy on CW with a receiver that sits on S1 on noise.
>>
>> So contribute to the ham radio knowledge data base by making some
>> measurements. I described my measurements in a previous post. Figuring out
>> what the reported S/N number means is interesting but the more important
>> question is what is the minimum signal to noise ratio this mode will decode.
>> Sitting up a test for minimum signal is a little tricky because there are
>> so many FT8 stations on at any one time, there is almost never a nearly dead
>> band. I simulated that on 160 by waiting until the first stations from the
>> NE showed up on the band (just after their sunset) and turning my antenna
>> away from them so as to decrease their strength and bring up the noise from
>> other directions. When I wait until sunset occurs in more locations, my S
>> meter hangs at about S9 +20 to 30 dB no matter which direction I point my
>> antenna. I tried doing this on 6 meters but often there was nothing there.
>> I suggest doing measurement first in normal decoding mode, then test what it
>> does in deep search mod
e. Be careful how you switch modes. FT8 likes to memorize the band and make
guesses in deep search mode.
>>
>> You can try doing the minimum S/N test in a crowded band instead of a nearly
>> dead band but I don't think you will ever find it decoding a weak signal.
>> You have to measure the noise levels and signal levels. You can't use the
>> reported S/N number.
>>
>> If you make some measurements, post them. I would really like to hear what
>> others find, especially if they happen to disagree with what I measured.
>>
>> I don't have a pony in the dog and pony DXCC race so I don't have an opinion
>> there. I love working DX on 160 but collecting cards was no fun. So years
>> ago I decided to only do the fun part. I compete with myself, no one else,
>> and I don't get bragging rights, but I don't do this for bragging rights.
>>
>> Jerry, K4SAV
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