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Re: [TowerTalk] High power 2:1 transformer was Re: 16om vertical and the

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] High power 2:1 transformer was Re: 16om vertical and the number of radials
From: Grant Saviers <grants2@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:36:05 -0800
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
It is true that gain changes a few tenths of a db over the range of radial heights. Antenna efficiency matters more than gain changes for verticals near earth.

The height matters a great deal below 10ft high. It is less sensitive the more radials. My antenna is a T, 77ft of vertical wire and two 36ft top hats with 8x 125ft radials at 10ft.

So here is a comparison for my antenna R (=Rr+Rg) over average ground for 2 x 125ft vs 8 x 125ft. Modeled EZNEC Pro/4.2 with radials at different heights over average ground:

ht-ft   2 rad   8 rad
5       33      25.2
10      33      24.3
15      30      23.5
20      29      22.8
25      28      22
50              19
75              17
100             14

A 2:1 TLT matching transformer shows a 1.1:1 SWR at resonance for my antenna with radials at 10ft.

The difference in efficiency between the 2 and 8 radials at 10 ft is 1.38db, using K8YC 10log(ohm ratio) formula. For my 8 radial antenna the Rg loss difference is 0.28db between 10ft and 20ft high.

The difference in efficiency between my 8 radial as built and free space (100ft proxy) is 2.34 db. The take off angle also changes from 23* to 15*. A plan B vs near/over salt water is put the antenna on top of a 10 story building. ;)

So my conclusion during design (tree supported T in a forest) was the effort/performance was just fine at 10ft. Plus being in a forest causes more near field radiation loss - maybe 4 or more db. As one poster said, "all the trees are cut down around BCB antennas".

The advice to have elevated radials at least as high as 10% of the wavelength seems fairly practical for higher bands. Likewise, more radials are better until as Rudy showed, there isn't much benefit >8.

With a coil loaded short radials 2 radial DXpedition antenna we tested the difference between 4 ft and 12ft was on the order of 10 ohms. Again, height matters most with few radials, more so with shortened ones.

Grant KZ1W



On 12/3/2022 15:00, Artek Manuals wrote:
If you read N6LF's work closely (see fig16 in 3/2012 QEX) you will see that radial height above 5' adds a few 10ths of a db improvement at most. (8ft =.015 wavelength above ground) Given noise and QSB on 160 hardly worth the effort ..IMO.  Ditto on the number of radials more than 4 at a reasonable (8') height buys very little as well. What is actually more important is soil conductivity  Rich farm loam vs sandy Florida (Fig 15)  is worth 5DB !!! I cant imagine trying to keep sixteen 134' radials 20 feet in the air !

Another good read on elevated radials ( non resonant radials) that doesn't get much play is by K5IU, "Optimal Elevated Radial Vertical Antennas" , Communication Qrtly, spring 1997. If Google is not your friend contact me off list and I will send you a copy.

Dave NR1DX


On 12/3/2022 2:17 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
On 12/3/2022 10:20 AM, Chuck Dietz wrote:
Thanks for the info. I think I am going with 60 radials on the ground. I
want to use the 160 vertical tower to support an 80 meter array around it. Elevated radials might make adjustments way more complicated.

It's worth studying N6LF's work on elevated radials. He stresses that keeping radial currents equal reduces loss, that making them slightly shorter than resonant helps that, and so does having MORE elevated radials -- for example, 8 is better than four. From N6BT, I learned that elevated radials for 160M should be at least 16-20 ft high; I learned that when I asked him why my 4 ft high radials weren't working well.

I have a
tractor and a good welder guy to weld a bracket and tube to a single plow
shear to make a radial plow.

Remember that the only virtue of burying radials is to protect them from damage, or from being a trip hazard. We are NOT trying to couple the antenna to the earth. The function of radials is to SHIELD the field produced by the antenna from the lossy earth, and to provide a low resistance path for the antenna's return current IN PLACE OF THE LOSSY EARTH.

Radials DO couple to the earth, and the ground loss shows up as series resistance. But radial current divides by the number of radials, power loss is I-squared R, so gets smaller in each radial twice as fast as the number of radials is increased, so more radials reduces loss.

73, Jim K9YC


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