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Re: [TowerTalk] 160M vertical dipole ?

To: towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 160M vertical dipole ?
From: Robert Harmon <k6uj@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 10:17:39 -0800
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
George,

Brian, K6STI, kindly sent this info on the N6LF gound probe.
The rods are 3/8" dia aluminum.  I know what you mean about the soil in the 
Phoenix area.  I used to line in Phoenix.
My soil here isn't that great either.  I am thinking about buying a 1/2" steel 
copper clad ground rod from Home Depot 
and making the two probe rods out of it.  Will cost $13.00.  Would probably 
spend more that for aluminum rod................


http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/owl.htm <http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/owl.htm>


Bob
K6UJ



 

> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:04 AM, George Skoubis <geo.skoubis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
>  What are those probes made of?  I have an Array Solutions VNA but I don’t 
> think I can pound an aluminum probe in the ground here in AZ (Phoenix area).
> 
>  I have problems getting a 5/8” ground rod pounded in (I have a jackhammer 
> ground rod driver).  
> 
>  I’m guessing the ground conductivity is pretty horrible though.  We built a 
> guest house last year and there was no ground rod required, they had us put a 
> 30’ copper UFER wire in the footing that comes up through the stem walls into 
> the electrical panel.
> 
>  I’d be interested in putting the probes in the ground and leaving them 
> there.  Then take measurements every week to see if the rain has a big effect 
> on the conductivity.  For those of us with crappy conductivity it may be 
> worth watering the “yard” before a 160 contest if the difference is big 
> enough...
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> George / W7GES
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:42 AM, Robert Harmon <k6uj@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> 
>> John,
>> 
>> Brian, K6STI, geve me some good info on using two probes and a VNA.
>> I havent used my Nanovna yet so it will be a learning experience.
>> I'm not very optomistic about my soil conductivity arund here though.   From 
>> what I have 
>> read it isn't that good.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Bob
>> K6UJ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 7:00 AM, John Simmons <jasimmons@pinewooddata.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bob,
>>> 
>>> How are you going to test your soil conductivity? Megger or VNA?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 73,
>>> -de John "Curly" NI0K in rural Debs, MN USA
>>> Hamshack Hotline: 6100000271
>>> https://www.qrz.com/db/NI0K <https://www.qrz.com/db/NI0K>
>>> 
>>> Robert Harmon wrote on 1/23/2022 4:59 PM:
>>>> Jim,
>>>> 
>>>> I appreciate the feedback.   I am going to test my soil conductivity to 
>>>> see if I can get a handle on it.  You got me thinking, how about if the 
>>>> top and bottom horizontal 
>>>> wires were T shaped rather than a single wire bent over ?   
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> K6UJ
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:00 AM, Lux, Jim <jim@luxfamily.com> 
>>>>> <mailto:jim@luxfamily.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 1/23/22 9:46 AM, Robert Harmon wrote:
>>>>>> No I don't have a 260 foot tower :-)    but thinking about this crazy 
>>>>>> idea.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My HDX590 tower is 90 feet fully extended.  By attaching to the side of 
>>>>>> the mast 15 feet up I can have an attachment point at 105 feet.
>>>>>> I am envisioning hanging a vertical dipole from the 105 feet point and 
>>>>>> running the top wire horizontally 82 feet sloping down to a 30 foot mast 
>>>>>> at the corner
>>>>>> of my property.  Likewise on the lower end of the dipole 9 feet high and 
>>>>>> going to the other corner of my property.  This woud put the center of 
>>>>>> the dipole about 57 feet
>>>>>> above the ground.  I don't know how a dipole will work with the ends 
>>>>>> bent this way but maybe it would be more efficient than a vertical with 
>>>>>> a compromise radial field.
>>>>>> An option might be to make two big boy loading coils and shorten the 
>>>>>> dipole.
>>>>>> What do you think of this idea ?  Am I off my rocker ?  hihi
>>>>> You're not off your rocker, but pay attention to the inherent problems 
>>>>> with vpol being strongly affected by the soil properties in the area - 
>>>>> particularly for low angles.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What's interesting is that the directivity of a infinitely short dipole 
>>>>> is 1.5 dBi, and a full size half wave is 2.15 dBi.  So a shortened dipole 
>>>>> with capacity hats, loading coils, or matching network will be pretty 
>>>>> much the same (within a 1/2 dB) as far as the far field goes for the same 
>>>>> center height.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your issues are going to be losses due to the fields interacting with the 
>>>>> soil AND losses in your matching networks (whether at the feed or loading 
>>>>> coils, or whatever). The radiation resistance is smaller, so the current 
>>>>> in the antenna (for the same power) will be higher, so you get more IR 
>>>>> losses.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Those can be driven down by using bigger wires, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The other thing that happens is that the impedance will vary more 
>>>>> quickly, so you might need an adjustable matching network.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You might also look at making the bottom of the dipole a "cone" (even 
>>>>> shortened), because that improves the matching bandwidth. Cones (and fan 
>>>>> dipoles) are broader band than single wires.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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