Am enjoying comments from DXers about real world/160m/marginal copy,
and can only imagine the challenges faced. My kudos to you for making
the valiant effort!
One obvious but simple check an op can do, after finding HIS call is
not in the DX's log, is to check whether that call is in the FCC
database. A few years back, I had a qso declared NIL and when I
checked the call sign that "took my place," I found it was not a
listed call sign - so how could it be a valid qso? The QSL manager
accepted my argument that it had to be me, and I picked up a new DX
entity- Band. ( his log was off by one letter...an "S" instead of a
"H," no less.)
Bob, W3HKK
PS While 160 has been more often poor than good here of late, the
first night of the CQWWDX-CW test was excellent into EU, around their
SR. It was such a pleasant surprise I stayed on the band for several
hours and "mined" the band for new signals that would pop up every few
minutes!
PPS George, sorry I missed you at K8R. Didnt realize you were there
til afterwards.
PPSS 4W8X - great effort in the CQWW-CW test! Terrific sigs on 10m!
Thanks for the qsos
( W3HKK-W8TNX-WW8OH-W8FD) and pulling me thru the massive pile ups!
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To: topband@contesting.com
Cc:
Sent: Thursday November 30 2023 12:00:45PM
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 251, Issue 31
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Today's Topics:
1. Timor Leste report #10 (Dietmar Kasper)
2. Re: Timor Leste report #10 (GEORGE WALLNER)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 04:39:54 +0100
From: Dietmar Kasper
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Timor Leste report #10
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Dear Topbanders
90% of the equipment is in the container. We still have 2 1/2
stations running (one without amp in phone only)
the 160m antennas and beverages are still up and some simple wire
verticals have been added to continue beeing
QRV the next days and nights.
It seems we are in rain season now. No afternoon without close
thunderstorms and all the noise on the bands.
Propagation is still poor however last night was a short window
around 12:30 to work a few lucky W4?s.
In the thunderstorm noise call sign logging is guessing. I am sure
that I am not almost right with the call.
I called a W4 for about 5 minutes and thought it was K4SV. At the end
I was logging K4SV but I had the feeling
that this station was not happy with that call and I may have it
wrong ... as much as you can hear in the crashes..
(QSO interpretation later)
When it comes to the question if a QSO is a QSO or not there is no
unique standard. Thanks to all for discussing
the question about FT contacts that must be initiated by an operator.
I feel that the discussion is still open
and a solution accepted by the majority of topbanders is not there so
far. It was clearly indicated that the
station must be observed during the contacts so automated contacts do
not count for DXCC. Still open is if the
contacts must be initiated by the operator or just by software. Some
said it is OK that the operator is still
watching that everything goes well. In my opinion an operator (and
ARRL clearly uses the word OPERATOR) is only
an operator if HE OPERATES, means, a visitor cannot be an operator by
just watching the traffic.
So my personal conclusion is that every contact MUST BE INITIATED by
an operator MANUALLY - like in old days
before MSHV software. I have the feeling that this cn start a
revolution in DXpeditions of today because
I FEEL AND KNOW that most DXpeds are running FT contacts unintended
and uninitiated however nobody has prove of
it as long as the DXped guys state that they are work in strict order
of DXCC rules - do they ? what do you think :-) ?
Also in CW mode its interesting to define if a QSO is a QSO. A QSO is
not just happen that one operator calls
and the DXped picks him up and give him a report. Station must hear
that the call was given correct and the report
is for him and he has to answer without delay. Even then QSO is not
sure as long as both partners have not confirmed
the contact by TU. Very often on topband QSB has prevented a QSO to
finish.
However this is a hobby and rules give room for interpretation. One
station told me that I worked him 3 times
but logged his call wrong so he does not define this contacts as
good He wrote: "at the 3rd time you came close
to my call but it still was wrong so I continue trying next nights".
This is a pretty high QSO standard!
I am not so strict. I know that under this hard QRN situation call
errors happen and I will have contacts wrong for sure.
I still log it even I know it may be wrong but there is no penalty in
DXpedition compared to a contest
If a station gives me proof that it was HIS CONTACT by telling me the
wrong call, his call, the date+time and the
exact QRG he transmitted - we might correct his call sign, as long as
the noted call in log is not requested by another
station. However his call must be close to the logged call, mostly
wrong just by one letter.
I wonder if topband community agrees with me or not.
These are some "contacts once in a liftime" so I do not want to make
it harder as neccessary.
Long writing, sorry for that. I hope it is still interesting for you
readers. Topband is a very serious part of the
hobby and who else as the topbanders should define the standards of a
GOOD QSO.
I do not want to create confrontation and bad discussions but I think
its essential to think about QSO rules for us
more to follow
73 Dietmar
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 00:04:05 -0500
From: "GEORGE WALLNER"
To: "Dietmar Kasper" , topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #10
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Dietmar,
FT8: I share your understanding of the DXCC rules. Somebody must be
there
and do something to initiate the contact. That is how I see it, but
realistically, if you can not tell the difference, how do you police
it?
While I don't agree with automated FT8 operation, at least the those
using
it today are honest about it. Invalidating their QSO-s will mean that
in the
future they will not declare when they are automated. I prefer
honesty over
perfection.
On CW I use the same standard as you have described. I take a note of
where
I am not sure and later use that when receiving correction requests.
If it
is not on my "doubtful" list, and it is just one letter off, and
everything
else matches, it is probably a legit request. But, I received a log
correction request, which had everything right and only one letter
off, I
corrected the call, and next day the real "owner" complained that his
QSO
has disappeared.?
Many 160 m contacts are marginal and we have to work hard at them.
That is
why it is more fun than FT8!
TKS for your efforts and 73,
George,
AA7JV
K8R and KH8/AA7JV
On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 04:39:54 +0100 Dietmar Kasper wrote:
>Dear Topbanders
>90% of the equipment is in the container. We still have 2 1/2
stations running (one without amp in phone only)
>the 160m antennas and beverages are still up and some simple wire
verticals have been added to continue beeing
>QRV the next days and nights.
>
>It seems we are in rain season now. No afternoon without close
thunderstorms and all the noise on the bands.
>Propagation is still poor however last night was a short window
around 12:30 to work a few lucky W4?s.
>
>In the thunderstorm noise call sign logging is guessing. I am sure
that I am not almost right with the call.
>I called a W4 for about 5 minutes and thought it was K4SV. At the
end I was logging K4SV but I had the feeling
>that this station was not happy with that call and I may have it
wrong ... as much as you can hear in the crashes...
>(QSO interpretation later)
>
>When it comes to the question if a QSO is a QSO or not there is no
unique standard. Thanks to all for discussing
>the question about FT contacts that must be initiated by an
operator. I feel that the discussion is still open
>and a solution accepted by the majority of topbanders is not there
so far. It was clearly indicated that the
>station must be observed during the contacts so automated contacts
do not count for DXCC. Still open is if the
>contacts must be initiated by the operator or just by software. Some
said it is OK that the operator is still
>watching that everything goes well. In my opinion an operator (and
ARRL clearly uses the word OPERATOR) is only
>an operator if HE OPERATES, means, a visitor cannot be an operator
by just watching the traffic.
>So my personal conclusion is that every contact MUST BE INITIATED by
an operator MANUALLY - like in old days
>before MSHV software. I have the feeling that this cn start a
revolution in DXpeditions of today because I FEEL AND KNOW that most
DXpeds are running FT contacts unintended and uninitiated however
nobody has prove of
>it as long as the DXped guys state that they are work in strict
order of DXCC rules - do they ? what do you think :-) ?
>
>Also in CW mode its interesting to define if a QSO is a QSO. A QSO
is not just happen that one operator calls
>and the DXped picks him up and give him a report. Station must hear
that the call was given correct and the report
>is for him and he has to answer without delay. Even then QSO is not
sure as long as both partners have not confirmed
>the contact by TU. Very often on topband QSB has prevented a QSO to
finish.
>
>However this is a hobby and rules give room for interpretation. One
station told me that I worked him 3 times
>but logged his call wrong so he does not define this contacts as
good. He wrote: "at the 3rd time you came close
>to my call but it still was wrong so I continue trying next nights".
This is a pretty high QSO standard!
>
>I am not so strict. I know that under this hard QRN situation call
errors happen and I will have contacts wrong for sure.
>I still log it even I know it may be wrong but there is no penalty
in DXpedition compared to a contest
>If a station gives me proof that it was HIS CONTACT by telling me
the wrong call, his call, the date+time and the
>exact QRG he transmitted - we might correct his call sign, as long
as the noted call in log is not requested by another
>station. However his call must be close to the logged call, mostly
wrong just by one letter.
>I wonder if topband community agrees with me or not.
>These are some "contacts once in a liftime" so I do not want to make
it harder as neccessary.
>
>Long writing, sorry for that. I hope it is still interesting for you
readers. Topband is a very serious part of the
>hobby and who else as the topbanders should define the standards of
a GOOD QSO.
>I do not want to create confrontation and bad discussions but I
think its essential to think about QSO rules for us.
>
>more to follow
>73 Dietmar
>
>_________________
>Searchable Archives:
>http://www.contesting.com/_topband
/> > - Topband Reflector
>
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