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Re: Topband: SDR Mythbusters - ADC Overload myths debunked...

To: Richard Rick Karlquist <richard@karlquist.com>, Top Band Contesting <topband@contesting.com>, "w8ji@w8ji.com" <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: SDR Mythbusters - ADC Overload myths debunked...
From: James Rodenkirch <rodenkirch_llc@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 05:58:38 -0600
List-post: <topband@contesting.com">mailto:topband@contesting.com>
I'm not an RF engineer so any "direction" or "stay inside these boundaries, 
Dood" assistance is appreciated! However, as a Systems Engineer with a 
background in statistics, I missed the "what?" factor when he mentioned Central 
Limit Theorem....I shoulda put on my "Huh?" hat so I'm almost 
embarrassed....hihi
 
I re-read the "explanation," Rick and Tom, and walked away with a clearer - 
"clearer" = more questions - view of its content.
 
The "Jupiter effect" is another one I shoulda looked for that hat as well anf 
headed to Google to see how I could link that statement/phrase to ADC overload! 
 
Thanks to you and Tom for your comments that caused me to re-read it and end up 
at a point I shoulda arrived at earlier ---- Sherwood Engineering's rcvr 
measurements are not there to debunk myths.....they support real 
comparisons/analysis.
 
 
72 de Jim R. K9JWV

 
> Subject: Re: Topband: SDR Mythbusters - ADC Overload myths debunked...
> To: rodenkirch_llc@msn.com; topband@contesting.com
> From: richard@karlquist.com
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 00:10:56 -0700
> 
> >   Steve Hicks, N5AC and the VP of Engineering at FlexRadio
> >  has posted an excellent explanation and bust of the
> >  ADC overload myth on the FlexRadio community.  You don’t
> >  need to be registered on the community to read this excellent write up:
> >
> >  
> > https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adc-overload-myths-debunked?utm_source=notification&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=new_topic&utm_content=topic_link
> >
> 
> I have no experience with Flex Radio equipment,
> (it might be great stuff for all I know),
> so I will confine my comments to the theory
> discussed in the "ADC overload myths debunked"
> paper.  A lot of what I read didn't make a
> lot of sense to me, or seemed irrelevant.
> 
> To begin with, I'm not sure as to the exact
> nature of the "myth".  Initally, the myth is
> supposed to be that hams think average power
> of an ensemble of uncorrelated signals is
> the sum of the power of the components.  This
> is not a myth, it is true.  Then it is suggested
> that hams believe peak voltages add up, as
> in a 6 dB increase for two signals.  Supposedly,
> hams don't realize that the high peaks only
> occur rarely.  I'm not aware of any ham lore
> exhibiting this misunderstanding.
> 
> The discussion of crest factor obscures the
> fact that average power still adds.  100 signals
> at S9 still has a power of 20 dB over S9, on
> the average.  Once in a while it looks like 40
> dB over S9.  The rest of the time, the combined
> power of all the signals still tests the
> dynamic range of the receiver.  It's not like
> a bunch of S9 signals is no worse than a single
> S9 signal.
> 
> Then there is this statement:
> 
> "The individual data points that make up a signal
>   you are listening to are almost never going
>   to fall in the same time as the overload, statistically."
> 
> I have no idea what this means in terms of
> Nyquist sampling theory.  The paper goes on to
> say:
> 
> "With a noise blanker, we remove thousands of samples
>   with no negative effects to the signal being
>   monitored and a momentary overload from the
>   addition of many signals summing up will have a
>   much lower effect"
> 
> I don't know whether this means Flex (IE "we") has invented
> some sort of magic digital noise blanker that removes
> samples corrupted by overload (I'm skeptical) or
> whether it means that a noise blanking effect
> just happens as part of the sampling process
> (in which case, I'm still skeptical).
> 
> Then the subject shifts to decimation and "processing
> gain", which are simply references to digital filters.
> These techniques are all based on linearity.  Adding
> digital filtering after a nonlinear front end cannot
> repair the damage caused by nonlinearity.  Just
> like adding crystal filters to the IF in an analog
> receiver won't overcome front end overload caused
> by enabling the receiver's built in preamp.
> 
> There is an assertion that the large amount of
> "noise" added by hundreds of signals results in
> "linearization", which I believe is referring to
> what is usually called "dithering".  This is a
> complete misunderstanding of dithering, which uses
> small amounts of noise and does not involve clipping
> in the ADC.  High quality ADC's have dithering
> and similar randomization processes built in and
> don't need help from external noise anyway.
> 
> The paper then changes the subject to phase noise.
> This has nothing to do with ADC overload.  I will
> note that digital radios are much more sensitive
> to clock jitter (IE phase noise) than analog radios.
> If anything, the phase noise issue is an argument
> against digital.
> 
> There are various distractions such as the Central
> Limit Theorem and the Jupiter effect that don't
> add much to the discussion.
> 
> The dubious argument is made that the
> existence of 1000's of receivers in the field
> without complaints from their owners "proves" that
> overload problems do not exist.  Until last
> month, we could make a similar statement about
> the millions of satisfied Diesel Volkswagen owners.
> 
> The concluding statement is quite a stretch:
> 
> " it is simply mathematically true.  FlexRadio Systems
>   makes the best amateur transceivers available."
> 
> Mathematically true?  Maybe it's that new Common Core
> math.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
                                          
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