It’s a little more complicated than that, Dave. ARRL is funded to do this sort
of thing and members expect that for their membership dues, ARRL will do what
it takes to help ensure as much of a noise-free environment as it can. It also
expects that ARRL will do what is needed to address RFI issues, both after the
fact and, to the extent possible, preemptively. (This ARRL’s strong presence
with the “real-world” industry via the IEEE and it EMC Society.)
I look at these individual cases as a form of “insurance.” All hams pay into
the League expecting that if there is an interference problem, they will
receive some help in one way shape or form. Also, when we do step in like this
and help a company design a more noise-free product, that will help every ham
that may in the future find himself/herself right next to a future Solar Edge
system. The likelihood of harmful interference is already significantly
reduced, through re-design of inverters and optimizers, the addition of
ferrites where needed and better installation practices. (Some of our cases
have been instances where good installation practice was not followed by local
installers.)
We are not able to put in this much work for every individual case, although
many cases have 20 to 40 hours of HQ staff time behind them. We do put in this
much work to work with a cooperating manufacturer, for all the reasons cited
above.
In the case of RFI, we also do this irrespective of membership. To get the FCC
to be willing to work cooperatively with ARRL, we had to agree that when
amateurs contacted the FCC, it could send those cases to us to try to resolve
them. The FCC cannot be in the position of doing that only for ARRL members,
so, wanting to get the FCC doing more with RFI, we do not require membership to
accept cases from the FCC. Once that door was opened, it would not be logical
to tell non-members that we can’t help them unless they are referred by the
FCC. One of the reasons that the Commission agreed to do this is that they
know that this program minimizes the amount of time FCC staff need to spend. If
we added to that burden by having hams we’d end up having to help anyway
contact the FCC, the FCC would be less likely to want to continue this. It has
worked out pretty well, and some amateurs even join the League after we spend a
lot of staff time helping. 😊
Ed Hare, W1RFI
From: David Eckhardt <davearea51a@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 6:17 PM
To: Hare, Ed W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org>
Cc: r55stan@gmail.com; Tony <73guddx@gmail.com>; Rfi List <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
This sounds like something the ARRL and W1VLF should be paid for!!! In my
small EMC/RFI consulting business, I sure wouldn't be doing this for
free!!!!!!! Some limited up-front consulting is in order to scope the
problem(s), but then, expect to pay for the knowledge and service.
Dave - WØLEV
EMC Design & Test, LLC
On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:51 PM Hare, Ed W1RFI
<w1rfi@arrl.org<mailto:w1rfi@arrl.org>> wrote:
We have come a long way, but still have a ways to go. Fortunately, we are
dealing with a company that is holding space for all of this and willing to
work towards better and better solutions.
The initial installations were pretty bad. They simply ran a single wire
between anything that was series strung, which formed a giant loop. The FCC
rules on emission control ONLY conducted emissions ON THE AC MAINS, so any
noise present on that loop did not have a specific limit. So, the early
systems complied with the letter of the law.
Over time, Solar Edge has taken a number of steps, each of which resulted in
quieter systems and effective correction to more systems. This included
replacing the loop with twisted pair, not in a loop configuration, the addition
of common-mode chokes, improvements to the common-mode choking, redesigned
optimizers, redesigned inverters and ongoing work that Solar Edge is
undertaking, working with W1VLF, trying new improvements. Honestly, this is
above and beyond what most companies do and I, for one, am appreciative. This
whole thing has gotten the attention of the industry in general, and W1VLF has
been contacted by Generac, another solar manufacturer, looking to work with
ARRL to help them design a system that will be a gold standard for low-noise
operation. Patience is paying off, albeit in steps and timelines smaller than
any of us really like.,
There is also the question of what harmful interference actually is, and cases
where there is S9 noise only when a beam antenna is pointed at a house is
typically seen differently by regulators, industry and amateur operators. I
have said several times here, we are all better off not having a line in the
sand because if FCC ever were forced to draw that line, I can say with
certainty that we are not going to like it. FCC has rarely been required to
even assess an individual circumstance as harmful interference, and when it
has, that assessment has been all over the map. I do know they will consider
the level of interference, the frequency occupancy, a comparison of that level
to median values of man-made noise (typically S6+ on lower bands, btw...),
whether the amateur can make use of frequency agility, how often it occurs,
time of day and possibly even the phase of the moons orbiting Saturn.
New solutions coming out of Solar Edge have been slow, but steady, so at this
point, I an awaiting the next round to result from Solar Edge working with
W1VLF. I think that this is the stage at which I or VLF may want to do a site
visit to a few locations, to see just what has been done, what can be done and
to possibly try new improvements.
And thanks for pointing out the value of our work. This is just the tip of the
iceberg, as ARRL staff work with manufacturers like this, with industry groups,
with the FCC, with entities like the IEEE, as industry standards and practices
are developed that could impact amateur radio. As was done in this case, we
don't always have a grand sweeping victory (although that is possible, too),
but manage to ensure that information about amateur radio is available as
standards are developed, ARRL staff and other amateurs participate in working
groups and, most important, as decisions are made by industry, ARRL has a seat
at the table. We don't hold seats in the back of the room, but at the head of
the table. I am the IEEE EMC Society Vice President for Standards in a
volunteer capacity, and we have other amateur volunteers serving as liaisons
between the EMC Society, ARRL and other industry groups. For me, that and the
things ARRL does to bring amateur radio into classrooms, into variou
s EmComm organizations and similar work overshadows whether I think that ARRL
made the right decision wrt QSL bureau costs of the rules for the Whoop and
Holler contest. Okay, soapbox off. But if any of this does encourage people
to join, include a note that explains your reasons for joining, and send a copy
of that to your ARRL Division Director. Those notes do get read and passed
around, and Directors make policy decisions based on what members say is
important.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab Manager
-----Original Message-----
From: RFI
<rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com<mailto:arrl.org@contesting.com>> On
Behalf Of r55stan@gmail.com<mailto:r55stan@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:16 AM
To: 'Tony' <73guddx@gmail.com<mailto:73guddx@gmail.com>>; 'Rfi List'
<rfi@contesting.com<mailto:rfi@contesting.com>>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
If SolarEdge applies their fix and the noise is still too high, it is possible
they missed one panel. That happened with one of my neighbors about two years
ago. They finally got it right on the fourth service call. Now I don't have
any RFI from that house. So, get them to come back, pull off every panel and
check that every optimizer has added ferrites on both the inputs and outputs
and the wires are twisted.
Randy KQ6RS
-----Original Message-----
From: RFI
<rfi-bounces+r55stan=gmail.com@contesting.com<mailto:gmail.com@contesting.com>>
On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:53 PM
To: Rfi List <rfi@contesting.com<mailto:rfi@contesting.com>>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
James:
Solar Edge used the same suppression techniques on my neighbors installation
and it only reduced the noise from S-9 +15 db to S-9 which is still very high.
I suspect that the suppression would be more effective on installations that
emit lower-levels of RFI so it would be interesting to know how strong the
noise was prior to the suppression being installed and what the results were
afterward.
The distance from your antenna to the solar panels is another factor so it
would be helpful to know that as well.
Congratulations.
Tony -K2MO
On 9/23/2020 9:29 PM, WW3S wrote:
> My neighbor across the street had a 21 panel Solar Edge array
> installed in May 2019, 6.5 kw I believe. I had the 18kc noise spikes,
> and the 200kc spaced optimizer noise. After working with Paul at the
> ARRL, who contacted the Solar Edge technical team on my behalf, Solar
> Edge committed to fixing the problem. They were supposed to come out
> in the spring, but of course current events prevented that. A visit
> was scheduled for early September, but the local crew needed to
> cancel. So I was suprised to see their van at the neighbors bright and
> early this morning. While the panels were disconnected, I took so more
> sdr sample screenshots, of course no noise. The engineer from Solar
> Edge appeared, and we had a brief chat about the course of action they
> were going to take. replace all 21 optimizers, twist all the DC
> wiring, and install ferrites on all the leads in to the optimizers. I
> had to leave for an appt this afternoon, and they were gone when I got
> back, but......it appears to be successful !!! The 200kc optimizer
> noise certainly is gone, no notice of it at all on the sdr, and the
> other noise seems gone as well. I only had a short time to check, but
> it certainly seems to have knocked most, if not all, of the noise
> down.....(insert emoji for jumping on soapbox) No matter how you feel
> about the ARRL, they are really the only game in town as far as
> supporting the amateur radio community with regards to RFI and
> spectrum defense. If you can spare a few bucks, send it to them. If
> you are not a member, think about joining.
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI@contesting.com<mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com<mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com<mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com<mailto:RFI@contesting.com>
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
--
Dave - WØLEV
Just Let Darwin Work
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
|