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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

To: <donovanf@starpower.net>, <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis
From: <dj7ww@t-online.de>
Reply-to: peter.voelpel@t-online.de
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:35:07 +0100
List-post: <mailto:topband@contesting.com>
If a 40m yagi points towards an 80m or 160m dipole in its neighbourhood the
yagi pattern will be ruined as well.

73
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+dj7ww=t-online.de@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of donovanf@starpower.net
Sent: Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 23:08
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

Hi Paul, 


A little modelling will answer the question more completely and 
accurately than I can answer it in writing. 


I was referring to the case where a 40 meter Yagi is on one tower and 
a T-vertical with a top length of 60-75 feet is suspended between the 
tower and a fairly nearby second tower. Lets say -- for the purpose of 
discussion -- that the two towers are in a north-south line. 


If you point the 40M Yagi East or West (perhaps +/- 45 degrees), the 
top of the T-vertical will be either below the Yagi or off to its side. 
If its less than 70 feet below the Yagi, the T-top will significantly
degrade 
the performance of the 40M Yagi. Its is off to the side of the Yagi with 
a separation of at least 35 feet or so, degradation of the Yagi will be 
minimal. Detailed evaluation is best done by modelling, its very easy 
to do. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Paul Christensen" <w9ac@arrl.net> 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:36:56 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis 

Frank, 

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "parallel." Are you referring to
the T top in parallel and *in front* of the 40m Yagi? Or, do you mean in
parallel with the Yagi but off to the side by 90 degrees as in the case of a
T strung between two towers, with the 40m Yagi atop one of the towers? In
both cases, the T is in parallel with the Yagi. 

A picture would speak a thousand words here, but asking the question in
words is the best I can do! 

Paul, W9AC 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Topband <topband-bounces+w9ac=arrl.net@contesting.com> On Behalf Of
donovanf@starpower.net 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 3:00 PM 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis 

Hi Paul, 


If you model -- or build -- a 40 meter Yagi with a nearby T-top vertical
with a 60-75 foot top, you'll discover that when the 40 meter Yagi is turned
so that its elements are parallel -- or near parallel -- to a nearby T-top
the impact on the performance of the 40 meter Yagi is severe. 


Been there. Done that... 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Paul Christensen" <w9ac@arrl.net> 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 12:45:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis 

I would hate to give up the efficiency of an over-resonated T, even if field
strength isn't significantly better than an L design. I think two design
issues help to avoid pattern distortion to nearby HF Yagis. 

First, as Frank suggested, keep the length of the horizontal T wire
non-resonant on any given band, including non-harmonically related bands
like 30m. It's not necessary to select a T top wire length that results in
resonance at the base feed, at least with a single omni antenna. 

Secondly, there's a difference in interaction between a T that's installed
broadside to a Yagi versus one that's installed perpendicular off the end of
a Yagi. For example, If a T is installed between two towers that are spaced
150 ft apart and a 40m Yagi is atop one of the towers, the T top wire is
never broadside to the Yagi. It's looking straight down a piece of wire. 

It's no different than a Yagi director that's rotated 90 degrees to the
driven and reflector elements. In fact, an existing Yagi design file could
be modeled that way only with a rotational change to the director's
Cartesian coordinates and a change in distance from the DE. No doubt
modeling will still show some interaction but what remains should be cured
with an optimum, non-resonant director length. 

Paul, W9AC 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Topband <topband-bounces+w9ac=arrl.net@contesting.com> On Behalf Of
Guy Olinger K2AV 
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 12:16 PM 
To: W7RH <midnight18@cox.net> 
Cc: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis 

That's an awful lot of effort just to keep a T top. There are a number of
effective alternatives to the traditional T top without the interaction
drawbacks. Inverted L is only the dirt simple one without the
skip-zone-making high angle hole in the pattern. 

73, Guy K2AV 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:46 AM W7RH <midnight18@cox.net> wrote: 

> The discussion has involved horizontally polarized Yagis. Perhaps use 
> a vertical 8 circle array on 40m! LOL And keep your T-Top! 
> 
> Bob, W7RH 
> 
> -- 
> W7RH DM35qj 
> 
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> our humanity." - Albert Einstein 
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