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Re: [TenTec] Radio Science + QSK = Radar

To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Radio Science + QSK = Radar
From: joel hallas <jrhallas@optonline.net>
Reply-to: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:55:33 -0500
List-post: <mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
It is common indeed. An HF over-the-horizon (OTH) radar guy would call it "backscatter" and that is exactly what the Russian (or I should say Soviet, I guess) "woodpecker" HF signals of the 70s and 80s were, watching us from over there, that made us all a bit crazy.

I never worked on backscatter systems, but was involved with a large USAF bistatic "forward scatter" OHD system in the early 70s. It could do a good job detecting certain Central Asian events until it was made obsolete by satellite observation.

Interestingly another application of forward scatter HF OTH that has been verified but not, to my knowledge, used is Tusnami forecasting. An HF path, from say WWV to KH6, would show a doppler shift if the ocean floor raised (lifting the atmosphere and hence the ionospher ever so slightly). This is just what our HF OTH setup was very good at detecting. Not sure exactly why that never took off. A bit off topic I guess <g>.

73 and Happy New Year,

Joel Hallas, W1ZR

ROBERT CARROLL wrote:

Martin-

Echoes are fairly common.  I ran into them on 17cw last week.  When I
finished a word etc I still heard about a dash worth of myself.  It was a
little disconcerting.

Bob W2WG

-----Original Message-----
From: tentec-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com]
On Behalf Of Martin, AA6E
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:21 PM
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: [TenTec] Radio Science + QSK = Radar

When operating QSK at 15-20 wpm, I am running into echoes of my
transmissions.  These occur on certain azimuth bearings at certain
times of day, most often to the SE, which is over water until hitting
S. Africa or Antarctica from here.  I've seen this from 20 M to 15 M,
at least.

Rarely, I think I've seen long-path echoes that come back to me from
the opposite azimuth. (The SteppIR bidirectional mode picks them up.) More often, the return bearing is the same as transmitting. I haven't
been able to measure the delay time accurately, but it is roughly 2
dit (element) times at 25 wpm (about 50 msec), indicating a 10,000
mile roundtrip.

It seems to be a real effect.  I can get rid of it by changing azimuth
or using a dummy load.

My question is whether other ops see this and whether it has been
written up anywhere in "ham space".  These are not the "long delay
echoes" that people have claimed to see.  The radio science community
does run HF radar to study fluctuations in the ionosphere, and this
phenomenon is probably well known to them.

The Orion makes a fair radar set, as it turns out.

73 Martin AA6E
--
martin.ewing@gmail.com
http://blog.aa6e.net
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