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Re: [TowerTalk] Need some actual Inv V lengths using 14ga THHN

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need some actual Inv V lengths using 14ga THHN
From: Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Reply-to: jim@audiosystemsgroup.com
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2022 23:21:52 -0700
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
On 9/20/2022 6:36 PM, Edward McCann via TowerTalk wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse, but I recall a presentation by K6OIK created for 
Pacificom October 2017 in which he addresses insulated wire in modeling.

He states: NEC2 has no capabilities to address dielectrics; NEC3 and NEC4 
handle dielectrics by accurate methods; Cebik in note 83 attempted to reverse 
engineer insulated wire corrections from NEC4 but did not discover the full 
answer; and

EZNEC v.4 and up claim to go insulated wires but use NEC2, which has no 
capability to model dielectric coated wires.

EZNEC Pro/4 uses NEC4 which has accurate dielectric caiability.

I’ve not used whatever AB7E calls EZNEC +, so I’m not in a position to 
challenge the position, but I am really interested in what EZNEC+ claims is the Vf of simple 
insulated wire, for  8, 10,12,14,16 gauge.

Steve Stearns, K6OIK, is retired from a high power engineering gig with a major aircraft mfr, for which he needed to model antennas around very complex shapes and environments surrounding objects. To accomplish that, he seriously looked under the hoods of a lot of modeling software. At least once, maybe twice, his talks at the Pacificon Antenna Forum were a survey of a half dozen or so he considered most useful, their capabilities, and their limitations.

I've used EZNEC Pro/2, which uses the NEC2 engine, extensively. It DOES allow the entry of the dielectric constant, thickness, and loss tangent of the insulation on a conductor. There are (at least) two catches -- first, you have to know what those constants are for the wire you have, and second, the NEC2 engine has to use those constants correctly. Seven years later, I don't recall what he said, but his talks are usually online, so we could look it up. :)

BTW -- the different versions of EZNEC, which is one of several UIs for NEC, is the number of data points that can be used to make the model, and features that the UI provides.

When we build an antenna and rig it, several factors will affect its apparent resonance if all we have to measure it is an SWR bridge. The feedpoint impedance of antennas is strongly affected by its surroundings, and the mutual coupling of a horizontally polarized antenna's reflection from the soil below it, which is, in turn, affected by soil characteristics and the effective height of the antenna.

With a well calibrated VNA, we can make a swept measurement from the shack, export the data to good Smith Chart software, and if we know the complex electrical parameters of the feedline, subtract out the feedline to see the resonance on the Smith Chart display, AND it's feedpoint Z at resonance. That's how I know that the feedpoint Z of my 125 ft high 80M dipoles at resonance is in the range of 85 ohms. The correlation with an NEC model will depend on how close actual soil parameters are to what I entered. But the ground beneath these antennas is pretty irregular, varying by 20-40 ft. So that's another variable. EZNEC can't handle it, but some of the other programs that Steve discussed CAN.

BTW -- I use SimSmith, Freeware by Ward, AE6TY, which has morphed to become SimNEC, using the NEC engine!

73, Jim K9YC



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