How about a specific recommendation for HF Ferrites? gil KI7SJC
> On November 3, 2019 at 9:00 AM towertalk-request@contesting.com wrote:
>
>
> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
> towertalk@contesting.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> towertalk-request@contesting.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> towertalk-owner@contesting.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (jimlux)
> 2. Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (Jim Thomson)
> 3. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (jimlux)
> 4. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (David Gilbert)
> 5. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (Jack Brindle)
> 6. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (David Gilbert)
> 7. Re: Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material (Don)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 09:32:13 -0700
> From: jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <a5380ed3-fb89-095a-9b4d-3473784f6f02@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 11/2/19 2:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 11/1/2019 6:40 PM, Roger Parsons via TowerTalk wrote:
> >> I would imagine that processing has improved since then, but this must
> >> still be to some extent true.
> >
> > You have a vivid imagination. :) I have measured data to prove that.
> > Also see N6RK's post. As luck would have it, I gave a talk to a Silicon
> > Valley club tonight on a very different topic, but afterwards fielded
> > questions about chokes from several engineers who had worked in
> > manufacturing. When I described my work described in an earlier post
> > about dealing with component tolerances, they nodded their heads in
> > agreement.
> >
> > My first gig after college was at Motorola, which is where I first
> > learned that a circuit design has to work with every part that gets
> > plugged in to the circuit board, which means that the design has to work
> > with components with tolerances that you can and did buy.
> >
>
>
> I haven't checked the catalogs, but I'll bet that the tolerances for
> parts intended for general purpose choking and transformers are wider
> than those intended for building inductors. If a transformer core has a
> higher mu than expected, it still works just fine as a transformer,
> barring issues with loss and/or self resonance. Likewise, for something
> being used as a lossy choke (as opposed to a resonant choke) you just
> care that the loss is high enough - if it's twice as high as you
> expected that's all the better.
>
> On the other hand, if you're buying inductors for filters or for
> switching power supplies, the core material has to be pretty consistent.
>
> Since there *is* some crossover among applications for cores, you could
> wind up using a poor tolerance core and having it work in a high
> tolerance application, as a prototype.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 10:18:23 -0700
> From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <55DEC5CD8B0146FCA2EBBE3276D17FC0@DESKTOPSV54DBH>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
>
> <Very funny.
> <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that variability in
> ferrite parameters has been known for a very long time. You're the one who
> asserted that it has just been discovered and that therefore Steve G3TXQ
> could not have known about it.
>
> <73 RogerVE3ZI
>
> ## I believe it was N3RR that bought 700, (seven hundred) type
> 31 cores from one supplier, all from the same lot number..2 years
> ago. He used a simple 1 turn link to test them..and then graded them.
> They were all over the map, + and ? 22%. Thats a whopping 44% spread.
> No 2 ferrites the same! ALL made in China......so what do you
> expect ? So much for fairite moving their factory to China. QC
> down the tubes ever since.
>
> Jim VE7RF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 10:51:26 -0700
> From: jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <9213c7ec-2021-0f3e-6424-f68844ac6650@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 11/2/19 10:18 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> > <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> > <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> >
> > <Very funny.
> > <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that variability in
> > ferrite parameters has been known for a very long time. You're the one who
> > asserted that it has just been discovered and that therefore Steve G3TXQ
> > could not have known about it.
> >
> > <73 RogerVE3ZI
> >
> > ## I believe it was N3RR that bought 700, (seven hundred) type
> > 31 cores from one supplier, all from the same lot number..2 years
> > ago. He used a simple 1 turn link to test them..and then graded
> > them. They were all over the map, + and ? 22%. Thats a whopping 44%
> > spread. No 2 ferrites the same! ALL made in China......so what
> > do you expect ? So much for fairite moving their factory to China.
> > QC down the tubes ever since.
> >
>
>
> +/- 20% is a reasonable tolerance for this kind of component -
>
> from Dexter Epcos:
> "Even with the best grinding methods known today, a certain degree of
> roughness on ground surfaces cannot be avoided, so that the usual term
> ?without air gap? or ?ungapped? does not imply no air gap at all. The AL
> values quoted allow for a certain amount of roughness of the ground
> faces. The tolerance of the AL value for ungapped cores is ?20 to +30%
> or ?30 to +40%. Closer tolerances are not available for several reasons.
> The spread in the AL values of ungapped cores practically equal the
> spread in ring core permeability (?20% ? ?30%), and the AL value largely
> depends on the grinding quality of the matching surfaces."
>
>
> https://www.ferroxcube.com/en-global/download/download/11
>
> the "filter" materials (material 3C11, page 77) show mu has a +/- 20%
> tolerance (yeah, it's for a lower frequency, but I didn't want to go
> hunting for one for HF...)
>
> There's also a strong temperature dependence on some of these
> materials.. mu might go from 1500 at 0C to 2000 at 50C.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 11:21:42 -0700
> From: David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <9b9950d8-42e6-8e8a-4674-8aac1a97cb59@cis-broadband.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>
> I find that kind of China bashing pretty funny.? Ridiculous as a
> generalization.
>
> I worked for a large semiconductor manufacturer for over thirty years
> and we ended up putting a joint venture manufacturing operation in China
> ... not simply for low cost, but also to be able to serve the Asian
> market better and to be able to head off future tariff concerns within
> China.? We spec'd our own equipment, we trained all the operators, and
> we put our own managers in key positions.? Most of those positions are
> now staffed by locals.? The resulting quality was literally
> best-in-class on a world basis. MANY other U.S., European, and even
> Japanese companies have done exactly the same, and nothing says that
> Fair-Rite hasn't as well.
>
> It is certainly true that many of the smaller locally owned companies in
> China have sloppy process and quality control, but companies like the
> large subcontract outfits in China put equivalent U.S. manufacturing to
> shame for overall manufacturing excellence.
>
> In the case of ferrites, the problem is the inherent variability of the
> process itself and the problem previously existed wherever the ferrites
> were previously manufactured ... including here in the U.S.? Why you
> think the variability was less before the manufacturing went to China is
> beyond me.? Several of us here have already explained that it wasn't.
>
> Dave?? AB7E
>
>
>
> On 11/2/2019 10:18 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> > <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> > <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> >
> > <Very funny.
> > <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that variability in
> > ferrite parameters has been known for a very long time. You're the one who
> > asserted that it has just been discovered and that therefore Steve G3TXQ
> > could not have known about it.
> >
> > <73 RogerVE3ZI
> >
> > ## I believe it was N3RR that bought 700, (seven hundred) type
> > 31 cores from one supplier, all from the same lot number..2 years
> > ago. He used a simple 1 turn link to test them..and then graded
> > them. They were all over the map, + and ? 22%. Thats a whopping 44%
> > spread. No 2 ferrites the same! ALL made in China......so what
> > do you expect ? So much for fairite moving their factory to China.
> > QC down the tubes ever since.
> >
> > Jim VE7RF
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:13 -0700
> From: Jack Brindle <jackbrindle@me.com>
> To: David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <A87D4CF5-535F-4325-A270-ECD678646771@me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Sadly, there is much evidence. Fair-rite quality really took a hit after they
> moved production to Asia. So much so that many companies have had to
> institute new QA procedures on incoming product to see if the characteristics
> come close to fitting the requirements. One of the biggest ones is large 60Hz
> transformer toroids that were failing in normal service because of the
> manufacturing issues. The company does still have some non-Asia manufacturing
> capability, and many companies are specifying product only from those sites.
>
> So yes, the toroids do have issues that are very problematic.
>
> Jack, W6FB
>
> > On Nov 2, 2019, at 11:21 AM, David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I find that kind of China bashing pretty funny. Ridiculous as a
> > generalization.
> >
> > I worked for a large semiconductor manufacturer for over thirty years and
> > we ended up putting a joint venture manufacturing operation in China ...
> > not simply for low cost, but also to be able to serve the Asian market
> > better and to be able to head off future tariff concerns within China. We
> > spec'd our own equipment, we trained all the operators, and we put our own
> > managers in key positions. Most of those positions are now staffed by
> > locals. The resulting quality was literally best-in-class on a world
> > basis. MANY other U.S., European, and even Japanese companies have done
> > exactly the same, and nothing says that Fair-Rite hasn't as well.
> >
> > It is certainly true that many of the smaller locally owned companies in
> > China have sloppy process and quality control, but companies like the large
> > subcontract outfits in China put equivalent U.S. manufacturing to shame for
> > overall manufacturing excellence.
> >
> > In the case of ferrites, the problem is the inherent variability of the
> > process itself and the problem previously existed wherever the ferrites
> > were previously manufactured ... including here in the U.S. Why you think
> > the variability was less before the manufacturing went to China is beyond
> > me. Several of us here have already explained that it wasn't.
> >
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/2/2019 10:18 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> >> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> >> From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> >> To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> >> <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> >> <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> >> Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> >>
> >> <Very funny.
> >> <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that variability
> >> in ferrite parameters has been known for a very long time. You're the one
> >> who asserted that it has just been discovered and that therefore Steve
> >> G3TXQ could not have known about it.
> >>
> >> <73 RogerVE3ZI
> >>
> >> ## I believe it was N3RR that bought 700, (seven hundred) type
> >> 31 cores from one supplier, all from the same lot number..2
> >> years ago. He used a simple 1 turn link to test them..and then
> >> graded them. They were all over the map, + and ? 22%. Thats a
> >> whopping 44% spread. No 2 ferrites the same! ALL made in
> >> China......so what do you expect ? So much for fairite moving their
> >> factory to China. QC down the tubes ever since.
> >>
> >> Jim VE7RF
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TowerTalk mailing list
> >> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:14:24 -0700
> From: David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <9f5664d9-22ab-3249-18a9-2632e1827b2c@cis-broadband.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Well, if that's the case it means that Fair-Rite did a poor job of
> transferring the manufacturing, and yes ... I've seen a bunch of other
> companies do the same crappy job of it especially when all they were
> looking for was quick cost reduction.? Those companies who made a
> commitment to do it right have found a large pool of highly
> conscientious technical labor in China just like we did.? Those who
> merely tried to port their processes over to some existing facility
> usually failed.
>
> My gripe is that simply bashing anything made in China is decades out of
> date and a bad generalization.
>
> 73,
> Dave?? AB7E
>
>
> On 11/2/2019 1:48 PM, Jack Brindle via TowerTalk wrote:
> > Sadly, there is much evidence. Fair-rite quality really took a hit after
> > they moved production to Asia. So much so that many companies have had to
> > institute new QA procedures on incoming product to see if the
> > characteristics come close to fitting the requirements. One of the biggest
> > ones is large 60Hz transformer toroids that were failing in normal service
> > because of the manufacturing issues. The company does still have some
> > non-Asia manufacturing capability, and many companies are specifying
> > product only from those sites.
> >
> > So yes, the toroids do have issues that are very problematic.
> >
> > Jack, W6FB
> >
> >> On Nov 2, 2019, at 11:21 AM, David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I find that kind of China bashing pretty funny. Ridiculous as a
> >> generalization.
> >>
> >> I worked for a large semiconductor manufacturer for over thirty years and
> >> we ended up putting a joint venture manufacturing operation in China ...
> >> not simply for low cost, but also to be able to serve the Asian market
> >> better and to be able to head off future tariff concerns within China. We
> >> spec'd our own equipment, we trained all the operators, and we put our own
> >> managers in key positions. Most of those positions are now staffed by
> >> locals. The resulting quality was literally best-in-class on a world
> >> basis. MANY other U.S., European, and even Japanese companies have done
> >> exactly the same, and nothing says that Fair-Rite hasn't as well.
> >>
> >> It is certainly true that many of the smaller locally owned companies in
> >> China have sloppy process and quality control, but companies like the
> >> large subcontract outfits in China put equivalent U.S. manufacturing to
> >> shame for overall manufacturing excellence.
> >>
> >> In the case of ferrites, the problem is the inherent variability of the
> >> process itself and the problem previously existed wherever the ferrites
> >> were previously manufactured ... including here in the U.S. Why you think
> >> the variability was less before the manufacturing went to China is beyond
> >> me. Several of us here have already explained that it wasn't.
> >>
> >> Dave AB7E
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/2/2019 10:18 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> >>> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> >>> From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> >>> To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> >>> <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> >>> <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> >>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> >>>
> >>> <Very funny.
> >>> <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that variability
> >>> in ferrite parameters has been known for a very long time. You're the one
> >>> who asserted that it has just been discovered and that therefore Steve
> >>> G3TXQ could not have known about it.
> >>>
> >>> <73 RogerVE3ZI
> >>>
> >>> ## I believe it was N3RR that bought 700, (seven hundred)
> >>> type 31 cores from one supplier, all from the same lot
> >>> number..2 years ago. He used a simple 1 turn link to test
> >>> them..and then graded them. They were all over the map, + and ? 22%.
> >>> Thats a whopping 44% spread. No 2 ferrites the same! ALL
> >>> made in China......so what do you expect ? So much for fairite
> >>> moving their factory to China. QC down the tubes ever since.
> >>>
> >>> Jim VE7RF
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TowerTalk mailing list
> >>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TowerTalk mailing list
> >> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:42:28 -0700
> From: Don <w7wll@arrl.net>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> Message-ID: <d53e8d18-e7dc-423f-a307-ea892bb6da41@arrl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Dave is spot on.
>
> In a couple of cases I'm familiar with, China not only delivered goods
> with quality equal to or better than US manufactured items but with
> their technical capability and desire to excel, were able to offer
> suggestions that improved the product AND lowered the manufacturing
> cost. China is not the only example. A significant number of other
> countries are just as capable as the US to produce high quality goods.
> Just look at some of the amateur radio 'stuff' available on the market.
>
> We aren't the only ducks in the pond anymore, and don't blame politics.
>
> Don W7WLL
>
> On 11/2/2019 4:14 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well, if that's the case it means that Fair-Rite did a poor job of
> > transferring the manufacturing, and yes ... I've seen a bunch of other
> > companies do the same crappy job of it especially when all they were
> > looking for was quick cost reduction.? Those companies who made a
> > commitment to do it right have found a large pool of highly
> > conscientious technical labor in China just like we did. Those who
> > merely tried to port their processes over to some existing facility
> > usually failed.
> >
> > My gripe is that simply bashing anything made in China is decades out
> > of date and a bad generalization.
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave?? AB7E
> >
> >
> > On 11/2/2019 1:48 PM, Jack Brindle via TowerTalk wrote:
> >> Sadly, there is much evidence. Fair-rite quality really took a hit
> >> after they moved production to Asia. So much so that many companies
> >> have had to institute new QA procedures on incoming product to see if
> >> the characteristics come close to fitting the requirements. One of
> >> the biggest ones is large 60Hz transformer toroids that were failing
> >> in normal service because of the manufacturing issues. The company
> >> does still have some non-Asia manufacturing capability, and many
> >> companies are specifying product only from those sites.
> >>
> >> So yes, the toroids do have issues that are very problematic.
> >>
> >> Jack, W6FB
> >>
> >>> On Nov 2, 2019, at 11:21 AM, David Gilbert
> >>> <xdavid@cis-broadband.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I find that kind of China bashing pretty funny.? Ridiculous as a
> >>> generalization.
> >>>
> >>> I worked for a large semiconductor manufacturer for over thirty
> >>> years and we ended up putting a joint venture manufacturing
> >>> operation in China ... not simply for low cost, but also to be able
> >>> to serve the Asian market better and to be able to head off future
> >>> tariff concerns within China.? We spec'd our own equipment, we
> >>> trained all the operators, and we put our own managers in key
> >>> positions.? Most of those positions are now staffed by locals.? The
> >>> resulting quality was literally best-in-class on a world basis. MANY
> >>> other U.S., European, and even Japanese companies have done exactly
> >>> the same, and nothing says that Fair-Rite hasn't as well.
> >>>
> >>> It is certainly true that many of the smaller locally owned
> >>> companies in China have sloppy process and quality control, but
> >>> companies like the large subcontract outfits in China put equivalent
> >>> U.S. manufacturing to shame for overall manufacturing excellence.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of ferrites, the problem is the inherent variability of
> >>> the process itself and the problem previously existed wherever the
> >>> ferrites were previously manufactured ... including here in the
> >>> U.S.? Why you think the variability was less before the
> >>> manufacturing went to China is beyond me. Several of us here have
> >>> already explained that it wasn't.
> >>>
> >>> Dave?? AB7E
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/2/2019 10:18 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> >>>> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
> >>>> From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi@yahoo.com>
> >>>> To: "Tower and HF Antenna Construction Topics."
> >>>> <towertalk@contesting.com>, "jim@audiosystemsgroup.com"
> >>>> <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> >>>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Ferrites 31 vs. 77 material
> >>>>
> >>>> <Very funny.
> >>>> <The posts from both N6RK and AB7E support my statement that
> >>>> variability in ferrite parameters has been known for a very long
> >>>> time. You're the one who asserted that it has just been discovered
> >>>> and that therefore Steve G3TXQ could not have known about it.
> >>>>
> >>>> <73 RogerVE3ZI
> >>>>
> >>>> ##? I? believe it? was? N3RR? that? bought? 700,?? (seven
> >>>> hundred)?? type? 31? cores? from? one? supplier,? all? from the?
> >>>> same? lot number..2 years? ago.? He? used? a? simple? 1 turn? link
> >>>> to test them..and then? graded them.? They were all? over the?
> >>>> map,? + and ? 22%.?? Thats a whopping? 44% spread.? No? 2 ferrites?
> >>>> the? same!???? ALL? made? in China......so what do? you expect ??
> >>>> So? much? for? fairite moving? their? factory? to? China.?? QC?
> >>>> down? the? tubes ever? since.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim?? VE7RF
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> TowerTalk mailing list
> >>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TowerTalk mailing list
> >>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TowerTalk mailing list
> >> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 203, Issue 3
> *****************************************
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
|