Towertalk
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [TowerTalk] Help with Force 12 C3S 10-Meter Adjustments

To: "towertalk@contesting.com" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Help with Force 12 C3S 10-Meter Adjustments
From: Bob K6UJ <k6uj@pacbell.net>
Reply-to: Bob K6UJ <k6uj@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:49:22 +0000 (UTC)
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
John N4EEB,
I also have a C3S.   It has been up quite a while, got it back when N6BT was 
still at the helm with Force 12 (& it was easy to contact him with questions 
:-)    
 I had perfect SWR on 15 and 20 but 10 was too high for me too.  I talked to 
Tom and he said to just lengthen the tips on the 10M driver only.  What I did 
was make sure 
the driver tube was well lubed with Penetrox and slid it out in 1/2 " 
increments tillit got down where it was good down in the CW end of the band.  
When sliding the 
tips out and taking readings I was getting flaky readings sometime so I put a 
hose clamparound the  overlap area and tightened it down before taking the 
readings.  Then after it was good I drilled and installed the rivets.  I didn't 
record my new tip dimensions unfortunately or I could tell you.   

good luck,let us know how it goes
73,BobK6UJ



      From: John Bayne N4EEB <john.bayne@earthlink.net>
 To: towertalk@contesting.com 
 Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:46 AM
 Subject: [TowerTalk] Help with Force 12 C3S 10-Meter Adjustments
   
Hello friends,

This is my first post to the list.

My questions are based on a Force 12 C3S constructed to the 80 MPH diagram in 
this manual:  http://bit.ly/F12-C3S

I purchased a new C3S from he Colorado version of the Force-12 company shortly 
before they seemed to disappear.  Unfortunately, my kit was missing several 
element tubes, and a lot of the "pre-drilling" mentioned in the manual was not 
done.  That being said, after I ordered the replacement aluminum from DXE and 
fabricated the missing pieces, the antenna went together fairly easy after 
drilling the missing holes, etc.

Having done as much research on potential problems as I could do, I noticed 
hams commenting that the 10m 2:1 curve was VERY high.  So, in an attempt to 
compensate/mitigate this in the original build, I extended each tip on the 10m 
driver from the specified 36.5" to 37.25 inches.

The antenna was installed in the clear at 33 ft. - It is fed with 97 feet of 
LMR-400-UF terminating to a 5KW JK 1:1 balun.  2" long, 1/2" wide copper strap 
connects the balun to the 20m driver.

A blanket statement:  SWR curves on 20M and 15M (and performance) is perfect.  
I am very happy.

As feared, the 10m SWR curve is way off for the type of operating I do.  I 
mainly operate CW, and phone from 28.3 to about 28.7.

The measured SWR curve on 10m is as follows:  (Measured on a RigExpert AA-30 
and also the SWR display on a Palstar HF Auto tuner in bypass - both in fair 
agreement)

2:1 Lowside Freq:  Approx 29.220 MHz.
2:1 Highside Freq:  Approx 29.820 Mhz.

Frequency of lowest SWR:  Approx: 29.417 MHz.

Rotating the antenna 360 degrees does not change any of the SWR readings, so 
nothing around the antenna is skewing things.

I have bad O.C.D. with projects like this.  I know I'm probably overthinking 
the solution to this, and that's why I'm posting here.  I realize that simply 
lengthening the tips on the 10m driver will adjust the SWR curve lower.  I also 
know that experimenting prior to final riveting in place is the best option.  I 
do not climb.  I have a friend coming over on 11/21 to lower the antenna to 
allow drilling out rivets and making changes.  He does not have a lot of time.  
I would like to pursue the best plan available first. That being said, here are 
my specific thoughts and questions:

It was suggested by someone familiar with this design to try simply lengthening 
the 10m driver tips each by 1.5 inches and seeing if that works.  (Leaving 10m 
reflector alone.)  What do you think about that?

My OCD brain has come up with a different first step:

Looking at the antenna diagram as printed, the length of the 10m reflector is 
7.035% longer than the driver.  The distance between the elements is fixed and 
cannot be changed.

The manual states that a .750 inch adjustment in each 10m driver tip will 
result in an approximate change of 250 KHz.  

The distance of the SWR curve now vs where I need it to be, is approx. 1220 KHz.

Doing the math, the driver would seem to require a total lengthening of 4.88 
1/4" increments to bring the lower 2:1 point down to approx 28.000 MHz.

If this way of looking at it is correct, the new total length of the 10m driver 
would increase to 207.26 inches, which would be accomplished by lengthening 
each tip to  approx 40 5/8" vs the current 37 1/4" tip lengths.

Am I thinking about this correctly?

Now, OCD on to the reflector!  How can one make such a large change in the 
driver and not the reflector?

If I change the total length of the 10m driver to 207.26 inches, the 7.035% 
difference in the stock reflector measurements goes out the window.

However, if I increase the total length of the 10m reflector to 221.84" by 
increasing each reflector tip by 4.42 inches (each tip now to be 47.75 inches 
instead of 43.5"), the totality of the adjustments are somewhat linear and 
symmetrical.  I think.

So, there you have my options.

1.  Lengthen the driver tips by 1.5 inches each, leave the reflector alone, and 
see what happens?

2.  Adjust the driver tips to best SWR curve and leave the reflector alone?

or

3.  Start with my math above and plan on starting with the full driver and 
reflector adjustments?

Any help would be appreciated.  I'm looking forward to learning a lot from your 
responses.

73, John N4EEB
n4eeb@arrl.net

(If you contact me off list, your email will bounce, but I will still get it 
and add you to my white list. - Thank you.)







_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk


   
_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>