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Re: [TowerTalk] US Tower price increase

To: Wayne Kline <w3ea@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] US Tower price increase
From: Ed via TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Reply-to: Ed <navydude1962@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 21:12:30 -0800
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
If you're remotely contemplating a UST, consider a LUSO for just a few dollars 
more!  

> On Jan 2, 2017, at 16:55, Wayne Kline <w3ea@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think the 10 minutes is the welding time, surly not the set up " installing 
> the pieces into the welding Jig "  and from my observation  only  the bottom 
> and top area plates ( which would have the pillow block brackets pre welded 
> on  ) are the only area which would require multiple  passes .
> 
> With big Arco or Miller Flux core  machines .... 10 min  would be on the low 
> end  of time  But 30 to 35 min from raw pieces to  finished craned off unit 
> more like it.
> 
> 
> Wayne W3EA
> 
> ________________________________
> From: TowerTalk <towertalk-bounces@contesting.com> on behalf of EZ Rhino 
> <EZRhino@fastmovers.biz>
> Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 6:44 PM
> To: Towertalk Reflector
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] US Tower price increase
> 
> Ten minutes huh?  I want to see that.   Send me a video.
> 
> Chris
> KF7P
> 
> 
> On Jan 2, 2017, at 16:26 , Kevin wrote:
> 
> Chris,
> 
> I used to do it for a living. I was certified to weld just about anything 
> anywhere, except underwater.
> 
> They are NOT a start up. They've had all the tooling and "machinery" for many 
> years now. ALL of their crank ups are a variation of 5 or 6  20' tower 
> sections whose jigs were built years ago. I could probably weld one in 10 
> minutes, even with my poor eyesight and prosthetic leg.
> 
> Press brakes, CNC Plasma tables, CNC lathes, welders, etc...don't need 
> replacing very often, if ever, given proper maintenance. We had a WWII turret 
> lathe that still put out very good parts, maybe not CNC quality but good 
> enough.
> 
> They're building towers not high performance engines or wrist watches.
> 
> Kinda funny that Tashjian hasn't raised their prices by a factor of three. 
> They're 20 miles apart and probably have quite a few of the same suppliers.
> 
> They simply don't want to be in the amateur market any longer.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/2/2017 4:56 PM, EZ Rhino wrote:
>> Good points Jim.
>> 
>> I may also add that a lot of us (including myself, at times) are spoiled.  
>> We clickety click click on line, and two days later a product is in our 
>> mailbox.  We no longer realize how things are manufactured or the time, 
>> energy and cost associated with producing a product.
>> 
>> Metal fabrication isn't an inexpensive or easy business to be in.  The 
>> machinery needed to fabricate a tower is expensive, er, I mean, EXPENSIVE! 
>> and HUGE!  CNC plasma tables, press brakes, welding equipment, CNC benders, 
>> jigs, fixturing tables, tooling, tooling, and more tooling, and qualified 
>> experienced operators of this machinery, and don't forget a huge building 
>> that can store all this stuff.  Metal fab is a slow process, lots of labor, 
>> and lots of trial and error to figure out how to make something that 
>> functions correctly.  Then you need to figure out the most economical way to 
>> mass produce the product with the least labor as possible.  It's not easy.
>> 
>> I am not excusing the price increases at UST, as they do sound out of line.  
>> But I do think getting a new 50-foot crank up for $3k is a bargain!
>> 
>> Also watch the used market, where you can get a real deal on some used 
>> stuff.  I watched the classifieds like a hawk for almost a year, finally 
>> found a TriEx LM470 that was still horizontal, still partially crated, never 
>> installed, and got it for a song.
>> 
>> Chris
>> KF7P
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 2, 2017, at 15:43 , jimlux wrote:
>> 
>> On 1/2/17 11:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> Great response, Jim. BUT -- the increase noted by the original poster
>>> was that the increase was overnight!
>>> 
>>> Several possible reasons for this. One is that business operations for
>>> the ham market are often supported by higher volume and higher margin
>>> operations for other markets. When those other markets fall apart, they
>>> no longer support the ham market, or contribute to economies of scale
>>> that allow lower prices.
>>> 
>>> Another is corporate mergers, which can change business priorities,
>>> change where products are manufactured.
>>> 
>>> But assuming corporate greed as the reason for all such price increases
>>> is unreasonable. It certainly can be, but there are many other reasons.
>>> 
>> yes, I agree.. usually it's a "it's not economic to sell at that price any 
>> more, compared to other products".  I was more commenting on the "back in 
>> 85" comment.
>> 
>> I know someone who is buying 50 tower trailers with 100+ ft towers on them. 
>> That's a much better sale proposition than onsie, twosie sales to 
>> individuals.  Whether through distribution or not, the support costs tend to 
>> be "per customer" not "per tower".
>> 
>> As for the overnight x3... That's a "we don't really want to be in this 
>> business" or "our cost structure radically changed" kind of increase.
>> 
>> I've also seen that when you have a business founder of a family operated 
>> business retires/sells out: the founder didn't have any debt service costs, 
>> was willing to live out whatever margin there was.  The new owner had to get 
>> a loan to buy the business and actually has to pay employees a wage and 
>> benefits - all of a sudden instead of "my wife does the assembly and we're 
>> on the same insurance" it's "I've got to pay a reasonable wage and provide 
>> vacation, insurance, etc.", I've got to pay rent and storage costs, I've got 
>> to pay for the "cost of money".
>> 
>> A similar phenomenon occurs when a partner retires/dies/leaves and the 
>> remaining partners have to buy them out.
>> 
>> Or, it's just - we don't want to leave existing customers totally in the 
>> lurch, but we can't subsidize them either - we'll be responsible and at 
>> least make parts available, but at cost that is basically "fabricate from 
>> scratch individually"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
> 
> 
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