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Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley bashing -( or any other bashing )

To: "M. Kent Miller" <k4mk@triad.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley bashing -( or any other bashing )
From: Andre VanWyk via TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Reply-to: Andre VanWyk <kr5dx@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 23:39:25 -0600
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Well said Kent. Let's hope someone starts a new more interesting topic as I 
think this horse is dead....really dead, so no need for beating it anymore. 

73
NJ0F

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 19, 2015, at 3:35 PM, M. Kent Miller <k4mk@triad.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> This whole discussion reminds me of why I cancelled my subscription to 
> Consumer Reports years ago. Their evaluations indicated that every thing I 
> had, appliances, cars, etc., etc. was just absolutely no good at all. 
> Everything they said was " bad " I had found to be good and, in fact, was 
> well pleased and had enjoyed good performance and dependability from all of 
> them.
> If a Mosley or whatever you' ve got works for you, consider it a good 
> antenna. My 20 year old TH-11DX works just great for me .... but I' ll bet 
> some would say it' s no good.
> 
> 73,
> Kent - K4MK
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: towertalk-request@contesting.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:00 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 146, Issue 55
> 
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. Re: Coax cable economics. (was Mosley Antenna (Earl Morse)
>  2. Re: Mosley Antenna Question (bill steffey)
>  3. Mosley bashing (greenacres113@charter.net)
>  4. Re: [Bulk] Re:  Coax cable economics. (was Mosley (Grant Saviers)
>  5. Mosley (Charles Evans Painting)
>  6. Re: Mosley Antenna Question (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
>  7. Mosley..again. (Jim Thomson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 07:28:09 -0800
> From: "Earl Morse" <kz8e@wt.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Coax cable economics. (was Mosley Antenna
> Message-ID: <20150219072809.39DC6536@m0005296.ppops.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> When I hijacked this thread it was my intention to just point out that you 
> should make a loss/gain budget and determine where you could get the best 
> bang for your buck.  Let the numbers tell you whether you should put up a new 
> antenna, buy an amp, or get better coax.  It is going to be dependent on your 
> operating practice, the microwave guy is going to have a whole different list 
> of items to improve his setup than the lowband operator.
> 
> Instead, I got 4 sources of cheaper coax, one comment of being full of 
> "sh*t", a couple of "Does it really matter?", and a couple of "all the tenths 
> of a dB eventually add up to something that matters".
> 
> All true to some extent.
> 
> The point is that it is "your" budget.  Gain wise and money wise.  It is 
> going to be tailored to you and what is most important to you may not be to 
> somebody else's situation.  Roger, K8RI, makes a good point, "Can you hear a 
> dB?"  When you have a couple of them you can.  His other good point is 
> something you can't buy and that is operating technique.  A good op is worth 
> a couple of dB right off the bat, nobody admits they are a crappy op just 
> like nobody admits they are a bad driver.
> 
> So check out your own station, figure out how much gain you get if you buy 
> the best coax.  Analyze your noise floor.  Maybe you have a FB signal but 
> can't hear anything because the noise floor is too high. (Great comment on RX 
> antennas, Jim K9YC, wish I could get my RX loops to work even partly as good 
> as the Beverages did.)  When you figure out how much money or effort each 
> improvement is going to net you then it will be obvious what your next 
> station improvement project should be.
> 
> Earl
> N8SS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:24:43 -0500
> From: bill steffey <ny9h@comcast.net>
> To: <Towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
> Message-ID: <20150219152445.39860AC9B02@mx.contesting.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> OOOKAY ,,,
> I loved my classic 33....in the 70s.
> 
> No too many components to screw up....
> 
> Rather than just talking about performance or perceived performance,
> let's get some data or anecdotes on WHY these devices perform as such.
> 
> So to what do we/you attribute the lack of performance???
> traps ???   feed arrangements??  element length/spacing ???\\
> 
> bill  ny9h/3
> .
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:56:38 -0600
> From: greenacres113@charter.net
> To: "'towertalk@contesting.com'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley bashing
> Message-ID: <uFwe1p00R55dDlS01FweLS@charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> 
> 
> Gee I guess when I got my TA 33 50 yr.s ago I should have taken
> others advice. A bad antenna. Except I've installed a lot more than
> one 3 el tribander of other manufacture for guys. Hygains were a mech.
> nightmare. Cushcraft used hose clamps for goodness sake.
> 
> I claim no tech. prowess or reams of lab paper to back up what I
> say.Just real life experience.My origional 50 yr old TA 33 is still
> wrking after two moves. Survived a tornado & lots of big wind.
> 
> I've never run over 600w & the antenna has never been over 55' high.
> I guess the 360 entities I have confirmed was just dumb luck. I need 3
> more on CW & 2 on SSB. Just lucky I guess.
> 
> I truely don't want to start flaming & I won't reply to them. But not
> every one has bad experience with any product. it's what you do with
> it. So many people either use a product wrong or thru their lack of
> knowledge dis it as bad when properly used it performs well. I have
> only used a few pieces of MFJ products & they worked as described but
> many people bash them. That can be said of a lot of products that have
> taken bashing on this & other reflectors. In the end it comes down to
> whether we're satisfied or not. Some products have design errors which
> you can't overcome. That you can't fix easily. But it also is a
> personal decision to buy one brand over another. Whether you're happy
> with that product to up to you..
> 
> K9IL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:00:14 -0800
> From: Grant Saviers <grants2@pacbell.net>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] [Bulk] Re:  Coax cable economics. (was Mosley
> Message-ID: <54E6088E.7050803@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> One additional consideration not mentioned so far is the QRN situation
> at the DX end.  When the noise is S5-6+ at the DX station, a few db can
> make the difference for making the Q or not.  Same for QRN levels the EU
> guys and some DXpeditions have.  Many times I can hear them fine, but
> they can't hear me (QRO & 4 elements @ 100') over their QRN/QRM.
> 
> Again, the ERP does count and it can come from better yagis, taller
> towers, stacks, or amps.  Then subtract the losses.  A coax upgrade for
> 3db is much cheaper than a 5 element monoband owa, doubling amp power, a
> tiny fraction of the cost of 30' more tower, and insignificant vs a
> second yagi in a stack.
> 
> Grant KZ1W
> 
> 
>> On 2/19/2015 7:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:
>> Your premise might be valid if you were the only DX'er
>> in the area, but when you have the competition that we
>> had on the East Coast, then my statements, while not
>> based on true scientific data, still are valid.
>> 
>> The truth is in the pudding ...
>> 
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Courtney Judd <k4wi@k4wi.net> wrote:
> snip
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:15:52 -0600
> From: Charles Evans Painting <cvevans989@hotmail.com>
> To: "towertalk@contesting.com" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley
> Message-ID: <BLU169-W10591A5A71BFECD8F2233208D2D0@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Love my Mosley 33...  enough said
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:31:54 -0700
> From: W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
> Message-ID: <54E60FFA.3090504@w0mu.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> The issue is that nobody wants to hear or find out that what they bought
> was not as good as another product or that product X which is less might
> be better.
> 
> If you are happy with your Mosley great.  Then why get your panties in a
> bunch.
> 
> Whatever you have now is probably better than what you had before, right?
> 
> I worked a pile of DX with a TH7DXX and a TA33JR.  I have worked a heck
> of a lot more with my SteppIR's.  Is a non trapped antenna better than a
> trapped one.  You can do the research on that.  I am pretty sure the
> TA33 jr ended up in V47 land and it made a pile of contacts.  It was
> simple to build setup and use.  Did the Monobanders we brought down
> later work better....Yep.  Do I have any regrets, nope.  Most multiband
> antennas require you to give up something to have multiple bands.
> 
> I got into the same conversation on Facebook with people about the
> Baofung or whatever it is dual band HT that you can buy for $35.00 or
> less.  People that spent way more another brand radio, went out of their
> way to bash the $35.00 radio and they never even owned one.
> 
> Operator skill plays a big part of working DX.  You can have the biggest
> and best but if you don't know when and where to call you probably are
> not getting in the log.
> 
> Mike W0MU
> 
>> On 2/18/2015 9:54 PM, ve4xt@mymts.net wrote:
>> The point many Mosley supporters don't seem to understand is that from the 
>> results of one antenna, you cannot derive any knowledge about whether it is 
>> outperforming another yagi of comparable cost or dimensions.
>> 
>> A person who puts up a TH7 and uses it exclusively for ten years can 
>> proclaim he was happy with the performance, but has no basis for proclaiming 
>> it would have outperformed, say, a Skyhawk, JK Tribander, X7 or even a Pro57.
>> 
>> Someone who took down a TA 33 and replaced it with an A4s and notices an 
>> improvement DOES have a basis for regretting buying the TA33, however.
>> 
>> An engineer and a tower expert who create a scientific plan for comparing 
>> antennas and execute that plan do have a basis for saying that one brand of 
>> antennas was inferior to competing, comparable models, as well.
>> 
>> The plural of anecdote is not data. Only by sound comparison can one say for 
>> certain that spending $1,500 with Mosley is better than spending $1,500 with 
>> DX Engineering or Hy-Gain or JK.
>> 
>> 73, Kelly
>> ve4xt
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 9:37 PM, "David Gallatin via TowerTalk" 
>>> <towertalk@contesting.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Indeed everything works. That supposition does not rule out some things 
>>> working far better then others with the proof being in the empirical 
>>> evidence of experience by making contacts.  I don't need an antenna range 
>>> or a model to tell me the Mosley tri-bander that's going up in the spring 
>>> is going to be light years better then the MFJ loop tuner I have sitting on 
>>> a chair in my spare bedroom. As for measuring performance... I have yet to 
>>> hear an Asiatic station, much less work one. I expect that will change with 
>>> the advent of my yagi going up and when the QSL cards start rolling in from 
>>> JA that's all the measurement I need.  73,
>>> David, AA9G
>>> 
>>> ex W5DCG and KC9EEV
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:20 PM, "john@kk9a.com" <john@kk9a.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> N6BT wrote an article in the July 2000 issue of QST called "Everything 
>>> Works"
>>> 
>>> You do not need an efficient antenna to work DX and without a way to
>>> compare it to other antennas you have no way to measure its performance.
>>> 
>>> John KK9A
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To:    towertalk@contesting.com
>>> Subject:    Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
>>> From:    Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>>> Reply-to:    jim@audiosystemsgroup.com
>>> Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:44:52 -0800
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue,2/17/2015 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>> K7LXC will not "talk his book" but I will say that multiple unbiased
>>> antenna range tests - including those reported in the K7LXC/N0AX
>>> "Tribander Test Reports" - have shown that the Mosley antennas perform
>>> more poorly than any other manufacturer's multiband yagis of similar
>>> boom lengths.
>>> 
>>> It's a bit of a stretch to call it a "book" -- it's a well-written,
>>> well-documented engineering report on the well-planned and well-executed
>>> antenna measurements that Steve and Ward did something like 12-15 years
>>> ago. This report, another on companion tests on HF verticals, and N6BT's
>>> "Array of Light" book are all available from Steve's Champion Radio
>>> website, and all are worth far more than what you pay for them.
>>> 
>>> The N6BT book is really about antenna design, discusses the designs of his
>>> Force 12 antennas, and includes designs for a nice variety of HF antennas.
>>> The only thing it lacks is an editor -- several chapters are redundant.
>>> One of the chapters debunks the inflated gain claims of antenna
>>> manufacturers, showing that the advertised gain numbers for their
>>> tri-banders were 3-6 dB greater than the maximum possible gain for a
>>> monoband Yagi of comparable size.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
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>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:53:16 -0800
> From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley..again.
> Message-ID: <6B065348F7264E469BC52DACB6A433AD@JimPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Since the 70s,  at least a dozen times we have helped swap a Mosely TA-33 jr 
> to
> something else, usually a Hy-gain 204BA.   The difference on 20m is the usual 
> 10 db.
> Think about it, 12 times that has been done locally.  The former mosely owners
> said the reason they bought the mosely ta-33 jr was  everything from  super 
> high
> gain figures,  superb FB, superb FS, low cost, light in weight, cheap to buy,
> simple rotor, only one coax, no balun required  and most of them...including 
> the local radio inspector
> at the time,  bought the 33jr...cuz of its outstanding swr curves !!
> 
> The problem with traps is they always put the 10 and 15m traps in the same 
> casing..nose to tail.
> On 10m it?s a 10m trap.  On 15M, the  10m trap is now a loading coil on 15m. 
> problem is that 15m
> loading coil is at the end of the 10m ele.  If ur gonna build a shortened 15m 
> tapped, monoband yagi,
> and used coils, you would not place the coils more than  half way out each 
> ele half.   On 20m,
> the 10 and 15m traps are now loading coils for 20m.
> 
> The only way the swr ends up flat on all 3 bands is cuz of a trap fudge. the 
> feedpoint Z is obviously
> way less than 50 ohms on both 20 + 15m.  But with the trap losses thrown into 
> the mix, the feedpoint
> Z ends up closer to 50 ohms... and presto, flat swr.   Several local folks 
> had the infamous wilson
> system 1 back in the day..trapped tribander.  It used a hairpin match.   Now 
> someone explain to me how the hell  you
> can make a hairpin match work on 3 bands ???
> 
> A fellow 140 miles north of me installed a Mosely PRO-96.   What a gong show, 
> and then some.   I looked at the
> PRO-96 myself, years ago.  After talking to Mosely reps at the factory, I 
> find out its really only good for 600W
> on rtty..and that?s only in the middle of each band, where swr is flat. They 
> said NOT to run 1.5 kw rtty into it,
> on any band = kablamo.
> 
> Some trapped yagis  have worked fairly well for a lot of folks.   The 
> problems  start after a few years..and the
> coil connections at each end of each trap start to deteriorate.   Then the 
> losses increase even more, meanwhile
> its has same or better swr, good fb and good fs.   Local friend has the big 
> trapped tribander..up 80 ft.   I could literally
> talk right over top of him on 20m, with my f-12  5-el 20m, monoband yagi up 
> 40 ft.   That?s into EU  from the west coast.
> 
> Another local fellow had the big 6 el telrex 20m monoband yagi  up 80 ft. 
> After 10 yrs of use, he swapped to the big
> telrex triband trapped yagi.   He gained 2 bands, but was no longer the 
> kingpin on 20m, he lost a carefully measured 6db.
> 
> Fact is a simple F-12 C3, with only 2 els per band will out do most trapped 
> yagis.   trapped yagis provided 3 bands..and 5 bands
> with later models..which is a lot more bands than any 204BA.   Trapped yagis 
> provide for several bands with just one yagi.
> These days  you can get  6 bands with one ant..and no traps.   F12  5BA for 
> example.  Or the 40-10m f-12 ants.  or any of the
> optibeam yagis.   IMO, it would really be silly to spend $$  on trapped yagis 
> in 2015,  esp when they can easily be out performed.
> 
> Jim   VE7RF
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
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> ------------------------------
> 
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 146, Issue 55
> ****************************************** 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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