Well said Kent. Let's hope someone starts a new more interesting topic as I
think this horse is dead....really dead, so no need for beating it anymore.
73
NJ0F
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 3:35 PM, M. Kent Miller <k4mk@triad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> This whole discussion reminds me of why I cancelled my subscription to
> Consumer Reports years ago. Their evaluations indicated that every thing I
> had, appliances, cars, etc., etc. was just absolutely no good at all.
> Everything they said was " bad " I had found to be good and, in fact, was
> well pleased and had enjoyed good performance and dependability from all of
> them.
> If a Mosley or whatever you' ve got works for you, consider it a good
> antenna. My 20 year old TH-11DX works just great for me .... but I' ll bet
> some would say it' s no good.
>
> 73,
> Kent - K4MK
>
> -----Original Message----- From: towertalk-request@contesting.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:00 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 146, Issue 55
>
> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
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>
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> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Coax cable economics. (was Mosley Antenna (Earl Morse)
> 2. Re: Mosley Antenna Question (bill steffey)
> 3. Mosley bashing (greenacres113@charter.net)
> 4. Re: [Bulk] Re: Coax cable economics. (was Mosley (Grant Saviers)
> 5. Mosley (Charles Evans Painting)
> 6. Re: Mosley Antenna Question (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
> 7. Mosley..again. (Jim Thomson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 07:28:09 -0800
> From: "Earl Morse" <kz8e@wt.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Coax cable economics. (was Mosley Antenna
> Message-ID: <20150219072809.39DC6536@m0005296.ppops.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> When I hijacked this thread it was my intention to just point out that you
> should make a loss/gain budget and determine where you could get the best
> bang for your buck. Let the numbers tell you whether you should put up a new
> antenna, buy an amp, or get better coax. It is going to be dependent on your
> operating practice, the microwave guy is going to have a whole different list
> of items to improve his setup than the lowband operator.
>
> Instead, I got 4 sources of cheaper coax, one comment of being full of
> "sh*t", a couple of "Does it really matter?", and a couple of "all the tenths
> of a dB eventually add up to something that matters".
>
> All true to some extent.
>
> The point is that it is "your" budget. Gain wise and money wise. It is
> going to be tailored to you and what is most important to you may not be to
> somebody else's situation. Roger, K8RI, makes a good point, "Can you hear a
> dB?" When you have a couple of them you can. His other good point is
> something you can't buy and that is operating technique. A good op is worth
> a couple of dB right off the bat, nobody admits they are a crappy op just
> like nobody admits they are a bad driver.
>
> So check out your own station, figure out how much gain you get if you buy
> the best coax. Analyze your noise floor. Maybe you have a FB signal but
> can't hear anything because the noise floor is too high. (Great comment on RX
> antennas, Jim K9YC, wish I could get my RX loops to work even partly as good
> as the Beverages did.) When you figure out how much money or effort each
> improvement is going to net you then it will be obvious what your next
> station improvement project should be.
>
> Earl
> N8SS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:24:43 -0500
> From: bill steffey <ny9h@comcast.net>
> To: <Towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
> Message-ID: <20150219152445.39860AC9B02@mx.contesting.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> OOOKAY ,,,
> I loved my classic 33....in the 70s.
>
> No too many components to screw up....
>
> Rather than just talking about performance or perceived performance,
> let's get some data or anecdotes on WHY these devices perform as such.
>
> So to what do we/you attribute the lack of performance???
> traps ??? feed arrangements?? element length/spacing ???\\
>
> bill ny9h/3
> .
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:56:38 -0600
> From: greenacres113@charter.net
> To: "'towertalk@contesting.com'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley bashing
> Message-ID: <uFwe1p00R55dDlS01FweLS@charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
>
> Gee I guess when I got my TA 33 50 yr.s ago I should have taken
> others advice. A bad antenna. Except I've installed a lot more than
> one 3 el tribander of other manufacture for guys. Hygains were a mech.
> nightmare. Cushcraft used hose clamps for goodness sake.
>
> I claim no tech. prowess or reams of lab paper to back up what I
> say.Just real life experience.My origional 50 yr old TA 33 is still
> wrking after two moves. Survived a tornado & lots of big wind.
>
> I've never run over 600w & the antenna has never been over 55' high.
> I guess the 360 entities I have confirmed was just dumb luck. I need 3
> more on CW & 2 on SSB. Just lucky I guess.
>
> I truely don't want to start flaming & I won't reply to them. But not
> every one has bad experience with any product. it's what you do with
> it. So many people either use a product wrong or thru their lack of
> knowledge dis it as bad when properly used it performs well. I have
> only used a few pieces of MFJ products & they worked as described but
> many people bash them. That can be said of a lot of products that have
> taken bashing on this & other reflectors. In the end it comes down to
> whether we're satisfied or not. Some products have design errors which
> you can't overcome. That you can't fix easily. But it also is a
> personal decision to buy one brand over another. Whether you're happy
> with that product to up to you..
>
> K9IL
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:00:14 -0800
> From: Grant Saviers <grants2@pacbell.net>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] [Bulk] Re: Coax cable economics. (was Mosley
> Message-ID: <54E6088E.7050803@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> One additional consideration not mentioned so far is the QRN situation
> at the DX end. When the noise is S5-6+ at the DX station, a few db can
> make the difference for making the Q or not. Same for QRN levels the EU
> guys and some DXpeditions have. Many times I can hear them fine, but
> they can't hear me (QRO & 4 elements @ 100') over their QRN/QRM.
>
> Again, the ERP does count and it can come from better yagis, taller
> towers, stacks, or amps. Then subtract the losses. A coax upgrade for
> 3db is much cheaper than a 5 element monoband owa, doubling amp power, a
> tiny fraction of the cost of 30' more tower, and insignificant vs a
> second yagi in a stack.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
>
>> On 2/19/2015 7:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:
>> Your premise might be valid if you were the only DX'er
>> in the area, but when you have the competition that we
>> had on the East Coast, then my statements, while not
>> based on true scientific data, still are valid.
>>
>> The truth is in the pudding ...
>>
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Courtney Judd <k4wi@k4wi.net> wrote:
> snip
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:15:52 -0600
> From: Charles Evans Painting <cvevans989@hotmail.com>
> To: "towertalk@contesting.com" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley
> Message-ID: <BLU169-W10591A5A71BFECD8F2233208D2D0@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Love my Mosley 33... enough said
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:31:54 -0700
> From: W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
> Message-ID: <54E60FFA.3090504@w0mu.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> The issue is that nobody wants to hear or find out that what they bought
> was not as good as another product or that product X which is less might
> be better.
>
> If you are happy with your Mosley great. Then why get your panties in a
> bunch.
>
> Whatever you have now is probably better than what you had before, right?
>
> I worked a pile of DX with a TH7DXX and a TA33JR. I have worked a heck
> of a lot more with my SteppIR's. Is a non trapped antenna better than a
> trapped one. You can do the research on that. I am pretty sure the
> TA33 jr ended up in V47 land and it made a pile of contacts. It was
> simple to build setup and use. Did the Monobanders we brought down
> later work better....Yep. Do I have any regrets, nope. Most multiband
> antennas require you to give up something to have multiple bands.
>
> I got into the same conversation on Facebook with people about the
> Baofung or whatever it is dual band HT that you can buy for $35.00 or
> less. People that spent way more another brand radio, went out of their
> way to bash the $35.00 radio and they never even owned one.
>
> Operator skill plays a big part of working DX. You can have the biggest
> and best but if you don't know when and where to call you probably are
> not getting in the log.
>
> Mike W0MU
>
>> On 2/18/2015 9:54 PM, ve4xt@mymts.net wrote:
>> The point many Mosley supporters don't seem to understand is that from the
>> results of one antenna, you cannot derive any knowledge about whether it is
>> outperforming another yagi of comparable cost or dimensions.
>>
>> A person who puts up a TH7 and uses it exclusively for ten years can
>> proclaim he was happy with the performance, but has no basis for proclaiming
>> it would have outperformed, say, a Skyhawk, JK Tribander, X7 or even a Pro57.
>>
>> Someone who took down a TA 33 and replaced it with an A4s and notices an
>> improvement DOES have a basis for regretting buying the TA33, however.
>>
>> An engineer and a tower expert who create a scientific plan for comparing
>> antennas and execute that plan do have a basis for saying that one brand of
>> antennas was inferior to competing, comparable models, as well.
>>
>> The plural of anecdote is not data. Only by sound comparison can one say for
>> certain that spending $1,500 with Mosley is better than spending $1,500 with
>> DX Engineering or Hy-Gain or JK.
>>
>> 73, Kelly
>> ve4xt
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 9:37 PM, "David Gallatin via TowerTalk"
>>> <towertalk@contesting.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed everything works. That supposition does not rule out some things
>>> working far better then others with the proof being in the empirical
>>> evidence of experience by making contacts. I don't need an antenna range
>>> or a model to tell me the Mosley tri-bander that's going up in the spring
>>> is going to be light years better then the MFJ loop tuner I have sitting on
>>> a chair in my spare bedroom. As for measuring performance... I have yet to
>>> hear an Asiatic station, much less work one. I expect that will change with
>>> the advent of my yagi going up and when the QSL cards start rolling in from
>>> JA that's all the measurement I need. 73,
>>> David, AA9G
>>>
>>> ex W5DCG and KC9EEV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:20 PM, "john@kk9a.com" <john@kk9a.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> N6BT wrote an article in the July 2000 issue of QST called "Everything
>>> Works"
>>>
>>> You do not need an efficient antenna to work DX and without a way to
>>> compare it to other antennas you have no way to measure its performance.
>>>
>>> John KK9A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To: towertalk@contesting.com
>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mosley Antenna Question
>>> From: Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>>> Reply-to: jim@audiosystemsgroup.com
>>> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:44:52 -0800
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue,2/17/2015 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>> K7LXC will not "talk his book" but I will say that multiple unbiased
>>> antenna range tests - including those reported in the K7LXC/N0AX
>>> "Tribander Test Reports" - have shown that the Mosley antennas perform
>>> more poorly than any other manufacturer's multiband yagis of similar
>>> boom lengths.
>>>
>>> It's a bit of a stretch to call it a "book" -- it's a well-written,
>>> well-documented engineering report on the well-planned and well-executed
>>> antenna measurements that Steve and Ward did something like 12-15 years
>>> ago. This report, another on companion tests on HF verticals, and N6BT's
>>> "Array of Light" book are all available from Steve's Champion Radio
>>> website, and all are worth far more than what you pay for them.
>>>
>>> The N6BT book is really about antenna design, discusses the designs of his
>>> Force 12 antennas, and includes designs for a nice variety of HF antennas.
>>> The only thing it lacks is an editor -- several chapters are redundant.
>>> One of the chapters debunks the inflated gain claims of antenna
>>> manufacturers, showing that the advertised gain numbers for their
>>> tri-banders were 3-6 dB greater than the maximum possible gain for a
>>> monoband Yagi of comparable size.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:53:16 -0800
> From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Mosley..again.
> Message-ID: <6B065348F7264E469BC52DACB6A433AD@JimPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Since the 70s, at least a dozen times we have helped swap a Mosely TA-33 jr
> to
> something else, usually a Hy-gain 204BA. The difference on 20m is the usual
> 10 db.
> Think about it, 12 times that has been done locally. The former mosely owners
> said the reason they bought the mosely ta-33 jr was everything from super
> high
> gain figures, superb FB, superb FS, low cost, light in weight, cheap to buy,
> simple rotor, only one coax, no balun required and most of them...including
> the local radio inspector
> at the time, bought the 33jr...cuz of its outstanding swr curves !!
>
> The problem with traps is they always put the 10 and 15m traps in the same
> casing..nose to tail.
> On 10m it?s a 10m trap. On 15M, the 10m trap is now a loading coil on 15m.
> problem is that 15m
> loading coil is at the end of the 10m ele. If ur gonna build a shortened 15m
> tapped, monoband yagi,
> and used coils, you would not place the coils more than half way out each
> ele half. On 20m,
> the 10 and 15m traps are now loading coils for 20m.
>
> The only way the swr ends up flat on all 3 bands is cuz of a trap fudge. the
> feedpoint Z is obviously
> way less than 50 ohms on both 20 + 15m. But with the trap losses thrown into
> the mix, the feedpoint
> Z ends up closer to 50 ohms... and presto, flat swr. Several local folks
> had the infamous wilson
> system 1 back in the day..trapped tribander. It used a hairpin match. Now
> someone explain to me how the hell you
> can make a hairpin match work on 3 bands ???
>
> A fellow 140 miles north of me installed a Mosely PRO-96. What a gong show,
> and then some. I looked at the
> PRO-96 myself, years ago. After talking to Mosely reps at the factory, I
> find out its really only good for 600W
> on rtty..and that?s only in the middle of each band, where swr is flat. They
> said NOT to run 1.5 kw rtty into it,
> on any band = kablamo.
>
> Some trapped yagis have worked fairly well for a lot of folks. The
> problems start after a few years..and the
> coil connections at each end of each trap start to deteriorate. Then the
> losses increase even more, meanwhile
> its has same or better swr, good fb and good fs. Local friend has the big
> trapped tribander..up 80 ft. I could literally
> talk right over top of him on 20m, with my f-12 5-el 20m, monoband yagi up
> 40 ft. That?s into EU from the west coast.
>
> Another local fellow had the big 6 el telrex 20m monoband yagi up 80 ft.
> After 10 yrs of use, he swapped to the big
> telrex triband trapped yagi. He gained 2 bands, but was no longer the
> kingpin on 20m, he lost a carefully measured 6db.
>
> Fact is a simple F-12 C3, with only 2 els per band will out do most trapped
> yagis. trapped yagis provided 3 bands..and 5 bands
> with later models..which is a lot more bands than any 204BA. Trapped yagis
> provide for several bands with just one yagi.
> These days you can get 6 bands with one ant..and no traps. F12 5BA for
> example. Or the 40-10m f-12 ants. or any of the
> optibeam yagis. IMO, it would really be silly to spend $$ on trapped yagis
> in 2015, esp when they can easily be out performed.
>
> Jim VE7RF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 146, Issue 55
> ******************************************
>
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>
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