On 2018-12-19 4:28 PM, K4SAV wrote:
> The official documentation for FT8 says it will decode signals 24 dB
> below the noise floor. That is not a correct statement most of the
> time.
No, that is a correct statement. Signal reports in WSJT-X for FT8, JT65
and JT9 are *all* measured *with regard to the noise in 2500 Hz*. Note
that the tone filters in WSJT-X are on the order of less than 12 Hz or
so wide so the SNR *for an individual tone in the DSP filter bandwidth*
at 0 dB is -23 dB relative to the *total noise in 2500 Hz bandwidth*.
The actual filter bandwidth will change from mode to mode due to the
differences in keying rated and tone spacing ... the actual SNR limit
is shown in section 17.2.7 of the WSJT_X 2.0 User Guide.
CW operators understand this from experience ... a quality 200 Hz filter
will have ~12 dB less noise than a 2800 Hz filter. Thus a CW signal
with a 200 Hz filter will have 12 dB better SNR than the same CW signal
with a 2800 Hz filter (excluding any "processing gain" from the ear-
brain filter).
With FT8, JT65, JT9, etc. coding (forward error correction) provides
some additional SNR (called "coding gain") but the *measurement* is
based on strength of the individual tone to total noise. Thus, the
lowest accurate report is -24 dB although some signals will be decoded
at levels below that.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2018-12-19 4:28 PM, K4SAV wrote:
While sitting around being bored and recovering from a gall bladder
operation, I decided to do some experiments with FT8. First thing I did
was upgrade the software to WSJT-X v2.0.
I hope this post doesn't turn into another FT8 bashing session. My only
goal was to understand how this mode works and what it can do and what
it cannot do.
The official description of FT8's signal reporting cannot be correct. It
is obviously not a signal to noise number and it is not an S meter
reading. What is it? That was the first question to answer. It's
obviously not an S/N number because how do you give a report of -1 dB
for a signal that is S9+40 dB on a quiet band. I was unable to find any
info on how the signal report was calculated so I tried to correlate
those reports to observations.
I think I have figured out a method that results in very close to the
same number that FT8 reports. Here is the experiment. I set up my main
VFO to USB 2500 Hz bandwidth and set the second VFO to CW at about 150
Hz bandwidth. I look for a station calling CQ and tune the second VFO
to him and measure his signal strength. I also look at the S meter for
the signal level on the main VFO. I also look at the signal report
calculated by the software. For stations calling CQ that report is
calculated by the software in my computer.
The FT8 report is usually very close to the difference in signal levels
(VFO1 - VFO2). For example if the main VFO reads S9+10 and the second
VFO reads S9, the FT8 number will be -10 dB. Note that the FT8 says
that -24 dB is the lowest it can decode. With VFO1 = S9+10, that's
about S7 for the smallest signal it can decode. Observations agree.
Those numbers will vary a little depending on how your S meter is
calibrated. In order to decode a weak signal, all those close USA
stations will have to go silent.
The official documentation for FT8 says it will decode signals 24 dB
below the noise floor. That is not a correct statement most of the
time. That statement should be that FT8 will decode signals 24 dB below
the sum total of everything in a 2500 Hz bandwidth. If the total of all
signals on the band are below the noise floor, it would be interesting
to know if FT8 will decode any of them. I haven't observed that yet in
a real situation. I did however try to simulate that condition by
adding enough noise to the signals such that all the signals were below
the noise. The software did continue to decode signals. All the
reports were -24 dB. This was a very crude test because I don't know
how exactly much the signals were below the noise. This should be of
benefit to those people that have S9+ noise on the bands they operate.
They should be able to decode the strongest signals on the band.
The (VFO1 - VFO2) test just described should always result in a number
equal to or less than zero. I notice sometimes the software will report
a small positive number. That seems to happen more often when the
bandwidth is set to something less than 2500 Hz and there are very few
signals on the band. I think this may be related to the fact that FT8
does all its calculations using audio signals and the receiver S meter
is operating on RF. Audio shaping in the receiver will affect the FT8
calculations. Audio processing in your computer sound card may be a
factor too. This becomes really apparent when the radio is set to CW and
the audio peaking filter is turned on. With SSB bandwidth and flat
audio response, S meter readings are a good indication of what will be
decoded. It should decode signals down to 24 dB below whatever your S
meter reads.
I also narrowed the bandwidth of VFO1 and chopped out a bunch of
signals. I got S7 on VFO1. Then a station calling CQ also measured S7
on VFO2. The FT8 report was 0 dB. Agrees.`
That test brings up a possibility. If you can narrow VFO1 to a very
narrow bandwidth hopefully containing only a very weak signal, then you
may be able to decode it. A strong signal in the passband of VFO1 will
kill the decode.
It works. I decreased the bandwidth of VFO1 to 200 Hz and it decoded an
S2 signal. I had VFO1 in USB mode with that bandwidth. My receiver will
go to zero bandwidth in USB mode. I put VFO1 into CW mode at 100 Hz
bandwidth and it decoded a signal that was moving the meter between S0
and S1. That signal would have also been easy copy if it was CW instead
of FT8. I was using a good receiving antenna on 160 meters immediately
after sunset.
While this seems to work for weak signals it is a non-starter for normal
operation. How do you tune around with a very narrow bandwidth looking
for a station calling CQ or any other station that might be DX? It's
not like CW, unless you learn to copy FT8 by ear. You can't find him
with a wide bandwidth because the software won't decode him. He is only
there when the bandwidth is very narrow. Given the number of USA
stations on FT8 that bandwidth will have to be really narrow to keep the
USA stations out of the passband. Even 50 to 100 Hz bandwidth usually
doesn't do it on a crowded band and you can't go lower than that and
still decode the signal. This doesn't sound like anything that is
practical. Maybe something useful might be to improve the copy of a
weak station by narrowing the bandwidth if you already know the station
is there.
One thing you could do is set the receiver to a narrow bandwidth and
call CQ DX, listening only on your transmit frequency. However the DX
station would probably need to be receiving with a very narrow bandwidth
or he won't hear you because you are probably very weak on his end too.
I seriously doubt that he knows to do that because it seems that no one
else knows about that either. Besides it is not often that a rare DX
station will respond to a USA station calling CQ DX. Another
non-practical suggestion.
There are DX stations strong enough to be decoded that can be worked
with FT8, especially on the higher bands like 20 meters. Even on 160
meters sometimes a DX station will be strong enough to be decoded. Just
tonight right after sunset I heard a couple of European stations on 160
running S5 to S6. Because they were so strong, I tuned down to the CW
portion of the band but I didn't hear a single signal from anyone down
there. Oh well.
Seems to me that FT8 is a very poor method of working weak signal DX. It
also seems that it isn't being used that way either. Just listening, it
seems that everyone is working very strong signals, 20 to 40 dB above
the noise floor, at least as observed at my station. Maybe this isn't
the case for people that have an S9+ noise floor. For those people, if
they can't reduce the noise, FT8 may be the only way they can do any
operating.
At least I now know more about FT8 than I did before starting this
exercise. Learning stuff is never boring and it killed some time, and
my big incision feels a little better.
Jerry, K4SAV
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
|