Not Helpful...
But quite revealing...earning them stripes!
CecilK5DL
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com>
Date: 9/5/18 8:20 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Mark K3MSB <mark.k3msb@gmail.com>
Cc: topband <topband@contesting.com>, Tree <tree@kkn.net>
Subject: Topband: Private thanks to you on your posting vs W0BTU RE topband
Leaving
Off the reflector:
Thanks Mark for posting this "rebuttal?" to W0BTU.
His rules are way too stifling for my tastes.
On another reflector, some bozo was going off
on me saying I didn't know what I was talking
about, etc. when I was trying to give him
some friendly advice.
The moderator asked me if I wanted
to have him kick this guy off the reflector
because he offended me. I told him, heck no,
he just makes himself look stupid. I'll let
the readers decide which one of us is the fool.
You know the saying, don't argue with a fool...
Anyway, your comments are very well received here.
I'm going to save your "rules" for future reference.
I'm a self confessed "never-FT8'er", but I wouldn't
dream of forcing the FT8 enthusiasts off the reflector.
I don't get where the beef is here.
73
Rick N6RK
> I had to go rummage around my Trash folder to find the original post that
> started this:
>
> “From the FT8 arguments in addition to the "millennials causing
> the WWV shutdown" argument, it appears that the parts of the hobby that I
> enjoy do not cross paths with those on the topband reflector. Although I
> wish you all many CW DX, it appears that I am no longer welcome and that I
> must take my leave.”
>
> I've no idea what the millennial and WWV comment is about as I did not
> follow that thread.
>
> So we're back to the old FT8 vs CW argument. Was this person
> specifically harassed and hunted down for his views? Shame on the
> moderators if that's what happened. Or, did “the leaver” just not feel
> welcomed because others expressed contrary views and wouldn't back off?
> If that's the case, then there's the door, don't let it hit ya where the
> Good Lord split ya.
>
> I've been on this reflector for a number of years and from how I observe
> the moderators actions, I doubt any harassment and hunting down of heretics
> occurred; I like to see the moderators shoot a warning shot across the
> bow to get the ship of discourse turned away from the rocks, and overall I
> think they do a good job of it.
>
> In today's society people believe they have a right not to be offended.
> Really? I don't think so. Nobody, including myself, has the right to
> have their opinions respected. You do have the right to express your
> opinions freely, and without fear of persecution. In reality, that's not
> really true for a reflector as it's a private venue, but most reflectors
> operate as a benign dictatorship and hold to these principles.
>
> Mark's Principles of Discourse:
>
> #1: You don't have the right to not be offended. You don't have the
> right to have your views favorably accepted. You don't have the right to
> expect people with contrary view to back down because you're offended.
> Accept the fact that people will not agree with you.
>
> #2: Only you can decide to take offense. Sometimes the offenses are
> real, a lot of times imaginary. When I've felt offended by people on a
> reflector, or in email, or other electronic mediums, I privately email the
> potential offender for clarification. The vast majority of times there
> was no offense intended. Remember, with electronic mediums you loose
> about 93% of the intended message (body language, tone of voice etc – look
> this one up if you don't believe me. Google is your friend.....).
>
> #3: If you don't respect the source of the insult, don't let it bother
> you.
>
> #4: If you're new to the sandbox, welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to
> be respected for your views, then you have to first earn your stripes.
> “Respect is something earned, not something given”. I have no idea who
> said that, but it's true. The corollary is that even if you don't
> respect a persons position, courtesy still remains.
>
> So Mike W0BTU, this is the 2nd thread in which you've posted your
> stackexchange etiquette manifesto:
>
> “but I gar-run-tee you that none of this bickering and (fill in your own
> definition of inappropriate behavior here) is tolerated there. ”
> Respectfully Mike, it seems you've had it with this “bickering” and
> “inappropriate behavior” and recommend putting the proverbial hammer down
> to set thing straight (you “gar-run-tee” it). That's concerns me.
>
> Is it really bickering that's occurring, or might it be just a healthy
> discourse on issues you might not feel need discussed any longer even
> though they may be of import to list members?
>
> “fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here”. Wow. I
> suspect you may not agree with mine. So, lets use mine and you follow
> them, OK ?
>
> “*Unacceptable Behavior - Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a
> negative impact on others ” So, if I offend someone I get a “warning” from
> the moderators as Enforcement step #1? I guess it's don't offend anyone
> for any reason or the hammer comes down!
>
> Sorry Mike, I think the moderators are doing a fine job as it is. Do I
> agree with their actions all the time? No. But I'll cut them some
> slack; it's a thankless job and you're always going to upset someone.
>
> So, in the end, we really don't know why “the leaver” is leaving. Was he
> hunted down and the slothful moderators did nothing? Did he attempt to
> contact the “offenders” to straighten things out? Or, perhaps, maybe he
> just wasn't able to change people's views to his own and decided to pick up
> his marbles and leave. Do we really know the facts, or are we just
> reacting in general to a newbie leaving the sandbox -- because a newbie
> leaving is bad?
>
> 73 Mark K3MSB
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:54 PM, Mike Waters <mikewate@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Okay, bear with me...
>>
>> Perhaps we here ought to have a Code Of Conduct. Something along the lines
>> as this one:
>>
>> https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior
>> https://stackoverflow.com/conduct
>>
>>
>> I am one of the three moderators on ham.stackexchange.com. Now, that site
>> is not a forum or a reflector, but I gar-run-tee you that none of this
>> bickering and (fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here)
>> is tolerated there.
>>
>> Here's the gist of that Code of Conduct:
>>
>> *Unacceptable Behavior*
>>
>> *No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language.* Even if you don’t intend it,
>> this can have a negative impact on others.
>>
>>
>> *No name-calling or personal attacks*. Focus on the content, not the
>> person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to
>> content (e.g. “lazy”).
>>
>>
>> *No bigotry*. We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate
>> people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those
>> are just a few examples. When in doubt, just don’t.
>>
>>
>> *No harassment*. This includes, but isn’t limited to: bullying,
>> intimidation, vulgar language, direct or indirect threats, sexually
>> suggestive remarks, patterns of inappropriate social contact, and sustained
>> disruptions of discussion.
>>
>>
>> *Enforcement*
>>
>> We take your reports seriously. Those who don’t follow the Code of Conduct
>> in good faith may face repercussions deemed appropriate by our moderation
>> team. This is how moderators generally handle misconduct:
>>
>>
>> *1. Warning*
>>
>> For most first-time misconduct, moderators will remove offending content
>> and send a warning. Most issues are resolved here.
>>
>>
>> *2. Account Suspension*
>>
>> For repetitive misconduct or behavior containing harassment, bigotry, or
>> abuse, moderators will impose a temporary suspension (one day or more,
>> depending on the violation).
>>
>>
>> *3. Account Expulsion*
>>
>> For very rare cases, moderators will expel people who display a pattern of
>> harmful destructive behavior toward our community.
>>
>>
>> All actions will be taken on a case-by-case basis at the discretion of our
>> moderators. ...
>>
>> We created this Code of Conduct because it reinforces the respect that we,
>> as a community, expect from one another. Having a code also provides us
>> with clear avenues to correct our culture should it stray off-course.
>>
>>
>> *Why shouldn't we have something like that here, my friends?*
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Actually, Dennis, I miss Tom. I learned an awful lot from him. He founded
>> Ameritron, helped to design the MFJ-259B antenna analyzer and a lot of
>> other items in the MFJ catalog.
>> I agree with what you say, but he calmed down a lot before he left
>>
>> One of the hams that used to constantly pick and argue with Tom actually
>> made a point of hunting him down for the sole purpose of getting him upset.
>> (!) He took some kind of sadistic pleasure in doing it! I know for an
>> absolute fact that is true, because when I emailed this person politely
>> asking him about it, he plainly told me this. (Any questions about this
>> person's identity will be immediately trashed).
>>
>> With an ENFORCED "be nice" policy here *with consequences for the kind of
>> behavior we see here*, Tom would probably still be here.
>>
>> I am *not* campaigning to be moderator here. Make your own judgements, and
>> decide for yourselves whether these suggestions would make this Topband
>> Reflector a better place or not.
>>
>> 73 SK CL,
>> Mike
>> www.w0btu.com
>> ham.stackexchange.com moderator
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 2:31 PM Dennis OConnor via Topband <
>> topband@contesting.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I have been gone a few years (spent time partially paralyzed and
>> few
>>> other minor impediments) but when I come back nothing has changed.
>>> Yeah, Tom headed off into the distance. He sure did like to argue. What
>>> made those arguing with him go ballistic is he is often/mostly right on
>>> technical subjects. He just did not have the ability to shrug, decide the
>>> other guy was an idiot and let it go.
>>> What I do notice about leavers is they seem to feel sorry for themselves,
>>> feel they are abused, yadda yadda. Unless you have the stature of a Tom
>> you
>>> won't even be mentioned by two weeks from now so feeling Noble is a waste
>>> of emotion.
>>> I participate in a few forums, ham antennas, contesting, boating,
>>> aircraft, photography, farming, astronomy, etc. I have lots of hobbies -
>>> remember, he who dies with the most wins.. I can tell you from long long
>>> experience that to be in any hobby forum you need to grow a thick skin.
>> If
>>> someone really irritates you, don't read him.
>>>
>>> If you have had your say and he keeps coming back at you and digging,
>> just
>>> drop it. Refuse to post any further on the topic. If you can't control
>>> yourself then block the thread. Let him declare victory, hold a parade,
>> and
>>> sail for home. That is how the self declared winners of any war end it.In
>>> my case I don't know what the hoo-haa over millennials (whatever the hell
>>> they are) is about, don't care, don't want to know, and not gonna look up
>>> the thread. See, I don't have any stress
>>> (I cause it)
>>>
>>> To the OP on this issue, I urge you to stick around because I like to see
>>> any and all opinions - but if not, don't let the door knob do ya.And NO,
>> I
>>> will not be looking back at this thread to see a reply. I have had my say
>>> and that's it.
>>>
>>> Ciao,Look for me on topband in 4 to 6 weeks when I get the soybeans
>>> combined and the broken antenna junk patched up (wow is it wrecked after
>> 8
>>> years) I'm CW though.
>>> k8do
>>> _________________
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
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