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Re: Topband: Monopole Elev Pattern w.r.t. Earth Conductivity

To: "Mike Armstrong" <armstrmj@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Monopole Elev Pattern w.r.t. Earth Conductivity
From: "ZR" <zr@jeremy.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:50:59 -0400
List-post: <topband@contesting.com">mailto:topband@contesting.com>
The experience here during the stations contest days of the 90's was with a high inverted V at 160-180' (added 20' to the tower after a lightning hit) along with a pair of 1/4 wave verticals with 32 raised radials of somewhat random lengths in the 100-130' range running thru the woods. Those used simple CATV RG-11 coax phasing lines and relays to switch endfire directions or a broadside figure 8. Im still a big believer in KISS and not throwing money away at commercial solutions that offer little or no added benefit.

Single Op contest results were that the 160 part of the score was at the top of the pack or close to it and was also right up there with the MM stations.

My conclusion which also included pileup busting DX chasing was that the only improvement left to be gained was increasing the outpower from 1200W which was already around 3dB down from many and a lot more from several others. I still run the same 1200W amp.

Im 20-30 miles from salt water, on the top of a granite hill with very little soil but a killer take off angle. N6BV/1, who lived the next town over and Ive known since he started at National Radio fresh out of college, modeled it for a HFTA release which was part of the K6STI AO or YO package.

Ive also mentioned the "awesome" performance of an inverted V with the apex at 50' and ends at 3' when I first moved here. It was put up in a hurry to work one of the Antartic island DXpeditions and cracked one of the biggest pileps Ive ever heard on one call. Later at Dayton the op said I was at least 10dB above everyone and the only call he could copy. Bob Brown had used that to add to his ducting theories.

My own conclusions are that a low loss vertical and a horizontal of some modest XX height are needed if you want to be highly competitive. All this talk about what happens at 0-5 degrees or wherever is good to toss around but I doubt it has much to do about what really works for those of us not right at the salt water.

Carl
KM1H


----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Armstrong" <armstrmj@aol.com>
To: "Tom W8JI" <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Cc: "Mike Waters" <mikewate@gmail.com>; "topband" <topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Monopole Elev Pattern w.r.t. Earth Conductivity


Dang Tom..... I just sent out a more wordy version of what you just said. This is getting strange. Not sure why it hasn't been disseminated yet (my email), but I swear I sent it just moments before your email hit my system.

You just added some fuel to my fire. Short version: I, with my rather inexperienced eye (160 experience, that is) is seeing a pattern that seems to indicate what we would call low radiation angles aren't really optimum for long range 160 communications. The other email goes into a little more detail in why I am thinking this way. Morning enhancement, especially with high angle radiators (like mine) where I am working Japan and Chile on a radiator that can very truthfully be called an NVIS antenna. On higher frequencies, a scaled version of my antenna wouldn't radiate a signal out of the southwest region, much less thousands of miles distant.

Just a thought! Again, my other email expounds a little more, but this was the conclusion in a nutshell. Maybe "low horizontal" antennas really ARE better on 160 than they should be..... Given our experience with low antennas on the higher bands, it seems counter-intuitive..... But there it is.

Mike AB7ZU

Kuhi no ka lima, hele no ka maka

On Oct 24, 2012, at 17:12, "Tom W8JI" <w8ji@w8ji.com> wrote:

If we knew those, then we could calculate the location and distance of the
signal hops. That might give us some insight as to why some people have
found a taller monopole to be worse than a shorter one at a given distance.

Back in the 70's or 80's there was speculation a low angle was lossy from grazing along, based on others having poor experiences with taller verticals. The top of my tall tower had some antennas and side arms which top loaded it a bit, but not much. Certainly the wave refracts gradually at a minimum, and so I think distance would not tell anyone much. There have been a host of theories since the 1960's, even some from Stew the real W1BB. :-)

I don't know what happens when it gets up in the soup, although people like K9LA should be pretty well versed on it. I only know things behave differently all the time, and what antenna generally works most of the time.

For example, at sunrise most of the time almost anything reasonably efficient works about the same here. It's more a matter of ERP at any not-too-low angle and any polarization.

73 Tom
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