>Art, some good points. Billy, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Ah now ... Sure you do ! :-)
>Productivity has everything to do with keeping prices down when
>faced with an increase in wages. My point on productivity is that
>the greater the ability of the manufacturer to increase productivity,
>the lower the price of the product provided that demand and the
>price of raw materials stays equal.
Yes, exactly what they teach in business school. Now, lets go back
to your statements ... Demand ? There's a variable ... Next, how
about the price of raw materials ? Has it changed for TT ? Yup,
another variable ... so your point on productivity is at risk as to
accuracy due to the other variables, that you simply do not know.
>With amateur radio transceivers today versus yesterday, the amount
>of parts used are fewer, thus the cost to manufacturer is lower, and
>more of the production is automated which also reduces the cost to
>manufacturer. R&D costs are assumed to be the same percentage of
>sales as 30 years ago, and may even be less today.
Really ? Can you really qualify that the VI has LESS parts than say
the mainline TT rig of yesterday ? If not, then your logic falls apart.
R&D costs vary from one industry to the next ... again you are
waving in the wind here ... and can't back up the data ... key is
your own word here "assumed".
>The retail price of TT's radios 30 years ago had to support a model
>that used retailers as the prime method of distribution. Now TT uses
>a direct model so more of the profit is retained by TT. I am all for
>profit and the more they make the better.
Now let's think this out ... can you prove this ... If this was true, then
the Orion would end up at the same distorted price point as say,
the Icom IC781 ... if TT still used the old method of pricing ... but
that's not what you are whining about, now is it ... nope ... :-)
>So what is the debate all about - price of the radio. Yes, Billy, I am
>whining about two price increases before the radio even hit the street.
>I think the price is too high (yes, my reality - not yours).
Thank you ... this is "what I was getting at" ... you are just whining.
The rest is nothing but ticked off "smoke and mirrors" from you.
>My response was to the post about the price of the radio being less
>than the rate of inflation. I just disagree with using the price of
>previous Argonauts, adjusted for inflation, as the basis for justifying the
>price of the 516. The reality in electronics pricing over the last 30
>years would indicate that the price should be even lower than what it is
>today. I believe the original $595 may have been the right price, but a
>perceived high demand for their product may have led them to believe
>they priced it too low - thus the two increases.
You disagreed with the accuracy of the post, but offered no verifiable
data to give any more accuracy to your own posts. Ham radio gear has
never been a high unit production product, like say a Walkman ... so the
economies of scale to compare a Wal-Mart VHS VCR and a Omni VI+
are apples and oranges as to pricing of raw components costs.
Face it ... you are simply stating your opinion ... no more, no less
and because you are ticked about the price increase ... that's it.
You, nor I, have any real data as to did TT incur sizable costs with
their unfinished goods ... I mean ... come on ... do you really expect
Scott to come on here ... and daily make posts on the reflector ....
"Oh, guys ... R342 ... well it was going to be 37 cents, but now it
looks like it's going to be 97 cents ... so we'll have to raise the
price the rig by ........." de W4PA SK
>Billy, my statements were made from my observations and my
>experience with pricing the products and services I offer for sale.
Great ... so what's that have to do with how TT decides to price
their products and services ? Why don't we let TT treat you in
the same fashion you have them ? Hmmm ... Why don't you
send your data to TT ... I am sure they'd like to return your favor ?
:-)
Certainly if you don't like the price ... Hey ... don't buy the rig. OK ?
Certainly if you don't like the price ... Hey ... tell someone ... you have.
But the rest of this is a bit much of throwing rocks, isn't it ?
>I think TT had a real opportunity to use a new product, at an
>attractive price point to attract NEW, never before TT buyers,
>to buy their products and become hooked - then move them up
>the ladder to their other radios. At $795 they have the radio at a
>price point that is no longer attractive and puts it, in many cases,
>at a price point that is higher than many of the low end rice boxes
>(of course we can argue the features of each and every product
>compared to the 516). I think the definition is missed opportunity.
Why don't we revisit the above, say 12 months AFTER the 516
is out and on the streets ? Otherwise ... it's speculation at best,
opinion at worst ... and Duffy ... they are not going to drop the
price because you blast them on here, now are they ? What's
next OM ? Protests at the TT plant ? :-)
>I already think highly of many of TT's radios and have owned
>three - A Paragon II, Omni VI, and the Jupiter. But most hams
>are unlike TT fanatics and are simply going to compare price
>and basic features and turn away from the 516.
See above ... you could take the same logic and apply it to
any product ... HINT: "The Price is NOT The Product" ... I have
never heard anyone at TT say "Our TT ABC rig is designed
to match exactly the price point or the features of their XYZ rig."
Why ? Because "price is NOT the(ir) product" ! They offer what
might be termed niche products ... Look at the Orion ... why
do you think MP owners like myself are watching that rig closely ?
Price has NADA to do with it ... we're looking for something in
a class by itself. Not another also ran ... Again, price is NOT
the product ... that's a concept used in many markets, including
firms like TT ...
>Oh, Billy, if everyone stopped buying plywood tomorrow, the
>price would come down. No one individual can do it alone as
>I am sure you know (at least I hope you know) from the rhetorical
>questions you asked. Why else do you think the price of plywood
>increases so dramatically every time a major hurricane threatens
>the United States? Plywood did not get more expensive to manufacture,
>it's just that more people wanted it.
Your point is ? Are you ... still ... trying to get TT to drop the price ?
Also ... apples and oranges again here ... Who were "the bad guys" ?
The suppliers, the middle men, who ? Lots of wiggle room in this
picture as to seeing who did what to who ... Also, sadly ... the buyers
had little or no choice due to timing of getting their home repaired.
Ham radio is a different setting. You and I don't have to buy a #516
to keep water out, or to repair a wall. (Tho we sometimes allow our
emotions to think that!)
Here we are speaking of simple two-step distribution ...
TT<>J. Ham. Don't like the rig ... don't buy the rig. But whining ?
73 Billy AA4NU ... who's waiting to see the "Orions Rcvr numbers"
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