I consider myself at least as ethical as you or anyone else in this
hobby, as many of my previous posts should illustrate. Here's the
difference between our two interpretations of this situation:
CR3L /did not lie/. They were fully qualified for both M/2 and M/M.
They presumably didn't cheat during their operations and qualified for
both categories.
What they DID do was /change their mind/, and that is completely
acceptable by the contest rules ... which allow you to change your entry
right up until the last moment. I can change my mind at any point up
until the deadline to enter SOSB20LP or SOABLP or SOABHP if I operated
honestly for SOSB20LP. That is all that CR3L did, albeit with
knowledge of the scores and intended category of other stations that
freely offered that information.
NOBODY LIED.
Regarding my comment on dishonest postings to 3830, I thought I was
perfectly clear that it was ... well, dishonest. I merely pointed out
that such chicanery had nothing to do with the official entry. I would
have a very dim view of CR3L originally submitting to the contest
sponsor as M/S and then changing it to a category they actually
qualified for at the last moment, but that would be because they claimed
something they weren't qualified for. Unless they could convince me
that it was due to an honest mistake I'd probably consider them for a DQ.
But that isn't what happened. CR3L had every right ... morally,
ethically, legally ... to enter any category they actually qualified for
right up until the deadline. Changing your mind (for whatever reason)
based upon publicly available information isn't unethical. If I'm in a
foot race that has a common starting point and both a five mile and a
ten mile category, and I see all my key competitors stopping at the five
mile point, I'm not going to feel guilty about continuing on to the ten
mile line even if I originally planned to only run five miles.
Not everything we don't like or feel comfortable with is a moral issue.
Dave AB7E
On 12/8/2015 5:06 AM, Kevan Nason wrote:
Dave (AB7E)
“They posted to 3830 and had to choose one at that point, but they had
the option to choose either category right up until the official
contest submission deadline… Seriously ... please explain objectively
how this represents an ethical violation of any sort.”
Defining the group ethics appears to be what this thread is attempting
to do – which is independent of the rules. Since the group doesn’t
seem to have a consensus of opinion there is no way justify my opinion
ethically. I can give you my moral viewpoint though.
(The following is debate and not criticism. Caveat is because so many
take offense at these things.)
It starts with an individual’s moral value system. I respect, but
don’t share yours. Others share yours and may or may not respect mine.
So be it.
No one seemed to bat an eye when you earlier wrote: “They didn't even
have to be honest in their 3830 posting since it has nothing to do
with their official entry”. You also wrote: “You wouldn't even have
known what their operation looked like at all if they hadn't posted to
3830, which is a venue totally separate from their official entry.” My
personal value system is the apparently anachronistic viewpoint that
honesty matters – in all venues. Particularly since there have been
many previous discussions about how we rely on our competitors
integrity in reporting their contest scores – are you ready for it?...
honestly.
If someone tells me in one format that they are M2 and then later
officially enters as MM, I view that as lying. Apparently you (and
others) don’t. And even if you/they do view it as lying, doing that is
still okay since neither lying nor declaring your category in 3830 is
addressed in the rules. (A follow on but important related point is
that since it is viewed as lying then that person or groups integrity
is challenged and people will naturally consider more seriously
whether or not that person or groups effort was legitimate in the all
other aspects of the contest(s).)
Changing category also seems in indicative of a "sore loser" mentality
and we contesters don't like to think or our group being populated by
"those types of people." We supposedly display good sportsmanship and
respect our peers.
In summary, my value system views the following as being morally
unacceptable. False statements followed by a last minute change to a
different entry class simply because it became apparent you couldn't
win the one you originally intended to enter, but could a different
category. Particularly when that change is for your own personal gain
and results in someone who otherwise would have had a 1^st place
losing that prize.
The bit about "what if K1ABC (John Doe) decided to fire up the amp in
the middle of the contest" doesn't fly. They made the 3830 declaration
early on and later changed it.
I would like to see the group’s ethics in line with my morals. You
naturally want it in line with your value system. Since our community
is worldwide with so many different cultures and viewpoints I suspect
this isn’t going to be solved to everyone’s satisfaction though. Not
even by compromise. We will always have people gaming the system
and/or cheating. You can’t write enough rules to prevent gaming and it
is unfortunately the nature of some to cheat.
Kevan
N4XL
(not naive, just idealistic)
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:55 PM, David Gilbert
<xdavid@cis-broadband.com <mailto:xdavid@cis-broadband.com>> wrote:
As long as they legitimately qualified for more than one category
I can't see a single ethical problem with them choosing which one
they want to declare for within the window that the contest
sponsor allows. Please tell me how doing so is a problem of
ethics. Seriously ... please explain objectively how this
represents an ethical violation of any sort.
Please remember that I'm one of the few that thinks using SCP and
Call History files are at least a little bit inappropriate
(although not illegal, of course) for unassisted operation, and I
deplore the way the M/S and M/2 categories have been stretched
beyond all recognition by some very large and intricately equipped
stations. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to my perception
of what is ethical and what isn't.
Dave AB7E
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