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Re: [VHFcontesting] Digital and VHF contests

To: wz1v@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Digital and VHF contests
From: John Kludt <johnnykludt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 12:45:50 -0600
List-post: <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Ron,

Very quickly - if one uses CW Skimmer or another decoder plus a contesting 
logging program and never touches the paddles but uses computer generated CW, 
is that an analog or a digital contact?

John

Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Sep 20, 2019 05:24, Ron Klimas WZ1V <wz1v@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Some of the guys have also been tossing around the idea 
> of whether the ARRL should just create seperate categories 
> for those who want to compete with or without digital. 
> There could be analog-only, digital-only, and combined categories. 
> Combined ops will want to work as many analog-only ops 
> as possible which would also help their score but they would 
> only be competing with other analog-only stations. 
> -73 Ron WZ1V 
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: John Kludt <johnnykludt@gmail.com> 
> To: Rick R <rick1ds@hotmail.com> 
> Cc: vhf contesting <vhfcontesting@contesting.com> 
> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 22:03:07 -0600 
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Digital and VHF contests 
>
> > Rick, 
>
> Interesting thoughts.  Maybe this is committee work, but if run as a 
> separate digital contest there is no need for a points differential.  I 
> asked a good friend who is an accomplished HF operator why CW Q's where 
> worth 2 points and SSB Q's were worth 1 point.  I had always assumed it had 
> to somehow do with the fact that CW was in some way more difficult.  His 
> answer surprised me: "A good SSB operator can make Q's at about twice the 
> rate of a good  CW operator so it is a mathematical way to level the 
> playing field."  If that logic were applied to VHF contesting digital Q's 
> should  actually be worth *more* than SSB Q's and maybe on a par with CW 
> Q's.  Right now as we all know there is no differential between Q's by 
> mode.  And maybe it should stay that way - just get that grid anyway you 
> can! 
>
> There are also interesting and conflicting threads on the digital modes - 
> specifically FT8.   On the one hand people complained that FT8 was too 
> slow, ergo FT4.  On the other hand the same folks are now bemoaning the 
> lack of the ability to rag chew during a contest exchange.  At Contest 
> University during Dayton last year many participants sported buttons with 
> the word "Please" with the universal "Not" symbol on top of it.  Extra 
> words just slow you down.  So I guess the question then becomes in VHF 
> contesting  which is the driver, rate or the ability to visit during the 
> exchange.  It seems to me that as individuals it is a hobby that we do for 
> fun so everyone is free to make their own decision.  But to make the claim 
> that FT8 is too slow *and *complain about the inability to kibitz during a 
> digital contact is a bit if a stretch. 
>
> Your comment about the casual users seem to me to be close to the center of 
> the issue.  In the days before digital the casual users had to line up and 
> take their turns mostly working the big stations.  Great for the run 
> stations and maybe not so great for the little guys.  I saw one comment in 
> this thread about the frustration of patently waiting your turn only to 
> have the big station scamper off to "run the bands."  In the old days that 
> was just the way it was.  With the digital modes we now have a "free 
> market" for Q's for the casual operator.  They now have a choice.  They can 
> be good S&P stations and scurry around looking for the run stations or they 
> can go with FT8/FT4.  As I have said before, the casual operator's goal is 
> to maximize their score not the scores of the big stations.  And if the 
> digital modes ultimately give the casual operator a bigger score, isn't 
> that as good contesters what they should do? 
>
> Interesting times! 
>
> John 
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 8:44 AM Rick R <rick1ds@hotmail.com> wrote: 
>
> > I�m resending this to a wider readership. Having been the author of the 
> > June VHF contest results for QST for several years (prior to FT8) I had all 
> > of the entrants scores. In a nutshell, 90% of those log submissions were 
> > �low� scoring casual contesters. My read is that most were out to join in 
> > the fun, give out points to the big guns and multis, say hi to another 
> > VHFer and to perhaps get some new grids. They operated for a few hours when 
> > the bands were busy�and the detailed Packrat log reviews done by WA3RLT 
> > showed the first few contest hours, Sat eve and Sunday eve as peak times, 
> > at least for the Mid-Atlantic and northeast. Now it is far more difficult 
> > for that casual op to find the concentrated activity except on the FT8 
> > frequency. And moving up the bands based on a completed FT8 contact is 
> > problematic. More recently I have been writing up the QST EME contest 
> > results and there are similar issues regarding digital vs CW, especially 
> > for contests. The introduction of JT65 has been a great boon to EME 
> > activity, yet there is still substantial CW activity.  I don�t have any 
> > solutions to returning to the activity of the past, but here are some 
> > thoughts. 
> > There have been EME contest activities sponsored by EU groups (ARI) that 
> > were digital only or CW/SSB only. The ARRL EME contest separates results of 
> > those who use CW/SSB only from those who use digital only or digital plus 
> > CW/SSB. Many have suggested that CW and/or SSB QSOs be given a higher point 
> > value than digital contacts. Others have proposed credit for multiple QSOs 
> > on the same band with the same station for 2 or 3 modes. Others thought 
> > there should be separate contests for digital and other modes. 
> > Hopefully the ARRL radiosport staff will evaluate what is happening and 
> > get an adhoc committee to discuss and make recommendations regarding VHF 
> > contests. We have been given fantastic tools with digital programs. We need 
> > to be able to utilize them and yet maintain a balance that keeps some of 
> > the personality of the stations and operators on the air that makes it easy 
> > and fun for the casual VHF contesters who are the real majority of those on 
> > the air for the contest weekends who help feed the logs and scores of the 
> > big guns. Rick K1DS 
> > 
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> > 
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