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Re: [TowerTalk] FCP vs On ground.txt

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] FCP vs On ground.txt
From: Steve Maki <lists@oakcom.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:16:32 -0500
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Here, maybe this will be easier to read...

-Steve K8LX

***********************

Howdy -
Here's some info we're having trouble getting posted so I'll try it here. My apologies if it doesn't come thru in a reasonable fashion. If so, this is only a test - hi. There's some good info so it might be worth wading thru.

Cheers,Steve      K7LXC

PS This is one vote for groups.io if anyone is keeping score.

***********************

There was a similar thread going around on the Topband reflector last week which set me to wondering why some folks have good success with certain antenna configurations while others are very disappointed with the same configuration.

All this discussion about the various radial systems got me to wondering again last night tonight so I ran a series of comparative models.I used NEC-4 (EZNEC Pro-4 / V6.0) which supposedly models things better near or on ground (than NEC-2 )

Now .... over the years my actual vs modeled performance is a been bit checkered especially with low band verticals on 160 and 80. I do not pretend that this is the final word on any of this.

Definitions

1) 160M Inverted L , 60 feet at the top and a 72' horizontal flat top.

2) FCP "folded counter poise ground plane" per what I could find in the history 33' on side 166' total length. 8' above ground.

3) Elevated radials; four 132' radial at right angle and 45 degrees to the plane of the Inv-L 8' above ground

4) On Ground radials; forty-eight radials on the ground , 100' long

5) Poor soil (.001m/s), Average soil (.005 m/s), very very good soil (.01m/s). When doing the models changes in the dielectric constant had very little effect so that was held constant at 12.

6) "Gain" comparisons are all done at a 15 degree take off angle.

Comparisons and some possible conclusions:

1) Best Case/ Worst case comparison: The on ground radial when modeled on average and very good soil is 6 to 9 dB better than the FCP over very poor soil.

2) When comparing the FCP directly to on ground radials for the SAME ground type, the on ground system is typically 4.5-5 dB better than FCP regardless of ground type.

3) The On ground system on VERY POOR SOIL is only 1 db better than the FCP on Average soil. This one was a bit more of a surprise (intuitively) but also explains why some of the confusion when comparing performance from station to station.

4) When comparing the 1/4 wave elevated radials directly to on ground radials for the SAME ground type the. The on ground radials were 1 to 1.5db better than the elevated radials.

5) Those of you who have done extensive modeling know that depending on the length of the horizontal section in the inverted L that there is some signal degradation ( pattern distortion) with the "lowest" gain in the direction the L points. and that the longer the horizontal section the greater the degradation in that direction. The better the soil type however the less pattern distortion for the same geometry.

6) Ground conductivity is BIG factor and we are talking ground in the far field no just under the antenna.

7) Putting your elevated radials with one of them directly under the horizontal L results in more pattern distortion probably true of FCP too but I didn't model that.

8) If a FCP is all you have room for..then go for it. Better than a single ground rod for sure. Sorta like that saw about the lottery " Your chances of winning are not that great, but they are a whole lot better than not buying a ticket at all"

Disclaimer and related topics:

1) This is what the NEC 4 models showed, take that with a grain of salt. According to some articles I have read in the last two years, the implication of those that those of us in heavily wooded settings should take down our 160M wire and concentrate on 10m. I have worked 156 countries on 160m in the last 2.5 years from a heavily wooded location with a modest 60' high wire T with four elevated radials over very poor soil (.0012 on average) here in central Florida where half the time we sit and listen to guys in New England work EU like they were locals (which to a greater extent they are). Probably would be closer to 200 worked if it weren't for so few expeditions due to C-192) The above analysis was done at a take off angle of 15degrees for the vertical portion of the signal. My experience is that the horizontal portion of the Inverted L's of modest proportions doesn't provide much in the way of radiation not even stateside anyway.

3) If your really interested in your native ground conditions google N6LF, Rudy's work on "OWL probes"

4) A couple of side trips related to elevated radial.

Read N6LF's work on elevated radials VERY CLOSELY before jumping to conclusions: For reasonable radial lengths (.2 to .4 wavelengths) more than 4 elevated radials doesn't buy you much if anything. More radials can help with more even distribution of radial currents which is often more about pattern distortion than anything else. If you really concerned about pattern distortion go to a "T" rather than an inverted L for starters or non resonant radials (see the last paragraph)

Elevating the radials from 8' to 20' buys you a whopping .2db improvement ( hardly worth the effort IMO).

Find a copy of K5IU (sk) article on non-resonant radials if you're really interested/concerned about the uniformity of radial currents with fewer (4 or less) in elevated radials. I use non resonant radials on both 80 and 160 (90' long) and the radial current varies less than 2% radial to radial. I have a copy of the paper somewhere ..contact me off list if you have really searched and can't find it ...

manuals@artekmanuals.comDaveNR1DX
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