That’s a REALLY presumptuous response on your part Joe. I have spent MONTHS of
ACTUAL TIME time modeling antennas of all types over all types of terrain at
multiple qth’s over the past 28 years with at least five different modeling
programs and I guaranty that I have run far more antenna/terrain models of
antennas than you have and far more than most of the people on this reflector.
I don’t live on flat ground and most of the people that I know don’t either;
but even if they did have a flat qth, their patterns would still be affected by
the topography around them as well as soil conductivity, which is why you
should always model your ACTUAL antennas over ACTUAL terrain or else your model
won’t be reasonably accurate and not likely to be particularly useful.
It’s not about how many lobes you have, it is also about how broad or narrow
the lobes are and at what wave angles they are located and how useful those
wave angles are relative to the wave angles that you receive from the high
volume DX areas at your qth. I suggest that you spend some meaningful time
doing modeling over ACTUAL real-world terrain to see what I am talking about
rather than relying on generalized concepts that may be misleading and highly
inaccurate at a specific qth.
Bob KQ2M
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 5:43 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Half Wave?
On 2019-01-17 5:24 PM, Bob Shohet, KQ2M wrote:
>
> Simply put, antennas at a given height have MULTIPLE lobes at
> different wave angles of varying gain over flat ground over average
> soil.
Not quite accurate ... dig out an ARRL Antenna Book or modeling program
and you will find that a horizontal antenna does not develop a second
lobe until it is more than 1/2 wave above flat ground, a third lobe
until it is more than 1 wave above flat ground, a fourth lobe until it
is more than 1.5 wave above flat ground, etc.
Since the first lobe is rather broad and the original question was about
the difference between 63 an 67 feet for a 40 meter yagi, the answer is
"not enough to worry about." The difference between 63 and 67 feet will
be more than swamped by any irregularities in the terrain. Now, if the
question had been about the difference between 40 and 65 feet, the
answer would have been significantly different.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2019-01-17 5:24 PM, Bob Shohet, KQ2M wrote:
> Simply put, antennas at a given height have MULTIPLE lobes at different wave
> angles of varying gain over flat ground over average soil. If you have
> anything other than flat ground and especially if you have complex terrain or
> are on the side of a hill or adjacent to water, your antenna at 1/4 or 3/8
> wave height above ground might have useful high angle lobes and some
> unexpected low angle lobes despite the low height. This is why it is
> important to model your antenna over actual terrain – and the ground
> conductivity with fertile ground vs. sandy soil or ledge also makes a
> difference and can be quite helpful.
>
> I live in Western CT and on 160 I use a wire Inverted L with a top height of
> 85’ with the rest of the wire horizontal and 3 elevated 1/4 wave radials no
> greater than 10’ above ground. It is a proverbial “cloud warmer” and yet I
> have worked 200+ countries and 33 zones with it along with a handful of JA’s
> on 160. And I haven’t tried very hard. And the antenna is on ledge and deep
> forest “soil” on the top of a hill with awful ground conductivity. The hill
> helps but it is primarily a high angle antenna – no matter – it works fairly
> well most of the time. It would work better if it was all vertical but that
> is not possible at my qth. If I listened to the “doom and gloom” of some
> opinions about height above ground I wouldn’t have bothered to put it up or
> even tune the band.
>
> Bottom line:
>
> MODEL several proposed antennas over your specific terrain at your qth. You
> may discover advantages at a given height that are counter-intuitive, and
> then put it up and get on the air. Often your antenna will be far more
> useful than you could imagine despite what others think.
>
> BTW, most antennas are louder over some path at different times depending on
> the height (or lack of it). My 3 L wire beam @ 50’ on 40 is VERY loud to EU
> for about 2 hours early in the opening; as loud as a yagi would be at the
> same time at a high height. The difference is that after those two hours, the
> Yagi would be 10 db – 2 s-units louder from the combination of antenna gain
> PLUS being at a higher and more optimum height for the given arrival wave
> angles from EU. The wire beam has its usefulness even though a quality Yagi
> at a high height would be better. What would be best is to have both – each
> for its advantages at different times.
>
> Actual results trump theory. If it works then use it. If it works well then
> enjoy it regardless of what anyone else thinks about it!
>
> 63’ vs. 67’ on 40 is not even worth considering if it looks close enough
> after modeling it over your terrain. Go with whatever is easiest for you.
>
> 73
>
> Bob KQ2M
>
>
> From: Peter Voelpel
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 3:37 PM
> To: 'Tower Talk'
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Half Wave?
>
> A 1/4 wave length height IS exactly a cloud warmer.
> At least 3/8 wave length height is necessary for a lower take off angle.
>
> 73
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Keith
> Dutson
> Sent: Donnerstag, 17. Januar 2019 21:27
> To: Tower Talk
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Half Wave?
>
> My experience is that 1/4 wavelength is okay to avoid a cloud warmer.
> However, higher is always better for DX, aka lower take-off angle.
>
> 73, Keith NM5G
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TowerTalk <towertalk-bounces@contesting.com> On Behalf Of Warren Wolff
> via TowerTalk
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:47 AM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave?
>
> Greetings: My understanding is that a yagi should be at least 1/2wave
> above ground to avoid warming the clouds. So, considering that thought,
> how much does an antennasuffer if such antenna is 63 feet up instead of 67
> feetfor 40 meters over VERY rocky "soil"? Thanks, Warren; W7WY
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
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