I can't speak about 4 squares on Xmit, but I can tell you about my circle 8 on
rx. Several of the elements at my old place were very close to BIG oak
trees....maybe 5 feet away. I always felt the system was not operating as well
as I expected, even though I used high quality coax and cut the feedlines
precisely to the required length using my MFJ 259. It seemed especially
deficient in the direction of the trees.
Oak trees in FL keep their leaves about 50 weeks a year, dropping them in the
Spring and immediately growing new ones, so the trees are always covered with
leaves and are not dormant, so that might have been a factor. I don't know
what type of trees you have but my guess they are coniferous and are never bare
so you might have a problem. Just a guess.
Bill K4XS/KH7XS
Darn trees don't want to cooperate, hi ! One (40m) element is only a couple
feet away from a very thick Maple tree with 3 trunks growing together.(a
couple feet in diameter).it can 'see' the other wires however. The existing
80m ground plane with the top bent over (in the woods) works by itself VERY
well. I put that down to my nearly ridgetop QTH.
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-request <towertalk-request@contesting.com>
To: towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2016 7:46 pm
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 165, Issue 71
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Today's Topics:
1. Wire 4-squares in the woods? (Mike Smith VE9AA)
2. 10m or 15m 4-squares (Mike Smith VE9AA)
3. Re: Replacement Bolts for Rohn GB45D (Richard Solomon)
4. Re: 10m or 15m 4-squares (Tim Duffy)
5. Re: Mobile Towers (Jim Rhodes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:14:44 -0300
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wire 4-squares in the woods?
Message-ID: <000f01d214fd$324e4f40$96eaedc0$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Folks, Mike VE9AA here. I apologize for the long description and a
subsequent question or two.
I've read the archives here and on CQ-CONTEST back as far as they go and
there is not much data on wire 4-squares in the WOODS or trees.
Does anyone have any real world experience with them?
I am nearly halfway through installing some of them in a strip of woods on
the side of my property .40/80 4-Squares & a 2el array on 160m. (all Comtek
boxes)
All will have 2 (maybe 3) raised radials. Phasing lines are dbl shield RG-6,
already cut to perfection using an AA-230Pro. Nothing is electrically
connected just yet.
To make matters worse, the ground is sloping slightly downwards
West-to-East.. About a 6-10' drop in 75' width of woods which is about 150'
long N-S.(a rectangle facing roughly NE/SW)
My 40m array is partially nested in the NW corner of the 80m array. (no
choice) and the 2-el 160m array runs along the western side of both the 40 &
80m arrays.(again, no choice)
( I know everyone says not to do this, but I only have so many trees and
there are no towers here @ VE9AA)
None of the wires will be perfectly vertical. In fact the 2-el 160m array
will use 2 inverted L's and the 80m array will have 2 of its elements with
the top 15' or so bent over, like an inverted L
Darn trees don't want to cooperate, hi ! One (40m) element is only a couple
feet away from a very thick Maple tree with 3 trunks growing together.(a
couple feet in diameter).it can 'see' the other wires however. The existing
80m ground plane with the top bent over (in the woods) works by itself VERY
well. I put that down to my nearly ridgetop QTH.
IE: With all the compromises I am faced with, should I really worry if two
of the 80m verticals are 65' apart and 2 are 67' apart? (or the diagonal
distances on 40m are a couple feet off?)
(seeing as how it's already on a slope, I am only using 2 raised radials,
and the "verticals" are not all perfectly vertical anyways.)(never mind the
partial nesting I am doing)
>>>Mostly what I am curious about is how "EXACT" do I have to be with the
placement of the wires where they meet the raised radials?<<<
(I intend to raise the highest/flattest ground side of the Western verticals
only a couple of feet agl and the lowest (down in the gulch), Eastern
Verticals up as high as I can reach-8-9', to hopefully counter some of the
effect of the sloping ground)
I doubt I would be the first guy to make a 4-square that's not perfectly
square, but how 'square' does it have to be (at the base of the verticals)
is my question I guess.
NB:
I do have a 20m 4-square array closeby (outside this strip of woods) with
elements up about 3' and raised radials (2 per) and the verticals are very
thin aluminum tubing and thin rod and they swish and sway in the wind, so
they are not really vertical much of the time either. It *IS* square
however. (My limited success with this compromised 20m array got me
thinking about the wires in the woods and DX-Engineering got a bunch of my
money last week!) That being said I am seeing about 3-4dB of gain on 20m,
and amazing F/B (like 25dB or so roughly) (referencing a HF9V with 2 raised
radials on RX and also using the RBN many times in A/B transmit tests)
Thanks for any insight, even if anecdotal. Anything about wire 4-squares
will be helpful.
Mike VE9AA
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:28:50 -0300
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] 10m or 15m 4-squares
Message-ID: <001401d214ff$2a7f5690$7f7e03b0$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I just posted a question about wire 4-squares, but this is a separate train
of thought.
Has anyone used 4-squares on 10m or 15m that could compare it to a low yagi,
a vertical or dipole? I can't find much data out there for 4-squares on the
high bands. Even 20m ones are rare.
Everyone seems to use Yagis, but since I have no towers (I don't climb) I am
maybe interested in these arrays for 10 & 15m. Some say the ground losses
are much higher on 10 & 15m - - true?
I do have a 20m 4-square array with elements up about 3' and raised radials
(2 per) and the verticals are very thin aluminum tubing and thin rod and
they swish and sway in the wind, so they are not really vertical much of the
time. It *IS* square however. That being said I am seeing about 3-4dB of
gain on 20m, and amazing F/B (like 25dB or so roughly) (referencing a HF9V
with 2 raised radials on RX and also using the RBN many times in A/B
transmit tests). It's roughly equal to or slightly better than a low A3S
tribander I have @ 24;' AGL.
I like the idea of no climbing and instant direction switching. I think I'd
eat a couple dB of gain for this if it was feasible to do without huge
losses at these frequencies.
Thanks for any insight on higher band 4-squares,10-15 or even 20m)... even
if anecdotal.
Mike VE9AA
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:46:14 -0700
From: Richard Solomon <dickw1ksz@gmail.com>
To: towertalk <TowerTalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Replacement Bolts for Rohn GB45D
Message-ID:
<CAC5FBO8Sgr9O3VaK+U4V+ts3YicF73iEmmWt_aB-GUn0QPyHgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
What about contacting Rohn or
one of their distributors, like
Texas Towers <
73, Dick, W1KSZ
On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 7:06 AM, Victor A. Kean, Jr. <vkean@k1lt.com> wrote:
> I have a Rohn GB45D guy bracket that is missing many bolts. The bolts
> that attach the inner brackets to the outer parts appear to be 3/8 x 16
> grade 5 hot dip galzanized and the corresponding nuts appear to be
> "heavy" hot dip galzanized and presumably grade 5 since the bolt would
> be under tension.
>
> Are my suppositions correct?
>
> Anyone know where to find such hardware? I have already checked Bolt
> Depot; Albany County Fasteners; Grainger; and Fastenall. Zinc plated
> bolts are readily found, but not hot dip galvanized.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Victor, K1LT
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:46:43 -0400
From: "Tim Duffy" <k3lr@k3lr.com>
To: "'Mike Smith VE9AA'" <ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca>,
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 10m or 15m 4-squares
Message-ID: <8A976453DD0A4695AA6E6D8E93FAA6B3@laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Mike:
I have been using full size Comtek four squares for 80,40,20,15 and 10
meters for over 20 years. They are very effective. The instant direction
switching is great. The footprint needed for 20, 15 and 10 meters is pretty
small.
In my experience the performance of a 4 square on the higher HF bands is on
par with a 3 element Yagi at about 50 ft.
73
Tim K3LR
-----Original Message-----
From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Smith VE9AA
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 2:29 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] 10m or 15m 4-squares
I just posted a question about wire 4-squares, but this is a separate train
of thought.
Has anyone used 4-squares on 10m or 15m that could compare it to a low yagi,
a vertical or dipole? I can't find much data out there for 4-squares on the
high bands. Even 20m ones are rare.
Everyone seems to use Yagis, but since I have no towers (I don't climb) I am
maybe interested in these arrays for 10 & 15m. Some say the ground losses
are much higher on 10 & 15m - - true?
I do have a 20m 4-square array with elements up about 3' and raised radials
(2 per) and the verticals are very thin aluminum tubing and thin rod and
they swish and sway in the wind, so they are not really vertical much of the
time. It *IS* square however. That being said I am seeing about 3-4dB of
gain on 20m, and amazing F/B (like 25dB or so roughly) (referencing a HF9V
with 2 raised radials on RX and also using the RBN many times in A/B
transmit tests). It's roughly equal to or slightly better than a low A3S
tribander I have @ 24;' AGL.
I like the idea of no climbing and instant direction switching. I think I'd
eat a couple dB of gain for this if it was feasible to do without huge
losses at these frequencies.
Thanks for any insight on higher band 4-squares,10-15 or even 20m)... even
if anecdotal.
Mike VE9AA
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:43:51 -0600
From: Jim Rhodes <jim@rhodesend.net>
To: jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mobile Towers
Message-ID:
<CALhxr4a9jinBNf7fqtDZ_LHOtr8-LM9X1rppnC0DWeLULMjruQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
The tops of all three sections have guy points. Every temporary cell site
tower I have ever seen were all guyed at the top if each section. Yes, most
ham type crank ups are not designed for guying the upper sections. But
these aren't ham towers.
On Sep 22, 2016 12:40 PM, "jimlux" <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 9/22/16 9:45 AM, Jim Rhodes wrote:
>
>> And they are pretty light weight towers. Look close, the diagonals are
>> tubing and the whole thing is bolted together. Designed to be guyed at the
>> top of all 3 sections. Maybe for very temporary use with light loading.
>>
>>
> I'll bet not guyed.. Crankups don't usually guy on the top because it puts
> loads on the hoist cable.
>
> They deploy these things with some lightweight antenna (wireless network,
> mini cell site, something like that) and if it falls over in the wind,
> they pick it back up or deploy another one.
>
> They are NOT designed or intended for permanent installation.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
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End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 165, Issue 71
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