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Re: [TowerTalk] LMR600 up to the top of tower ? Respon fr DAVIS RF

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR600 up to the top of tower ? Respon fr DAVIS RF
From: "Roger (K8RI) on TT" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk@tm.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 18:55:51 -0400
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
All good info and in theory the Polyphaser at the top is sound. OTOH is it practical and how much additional protection does it give over one at the base of the tower? That would be the first thing to fail from a nearby, or direct strike. If the top of the tower is easily reached, then by all means go for it, but if it requires a long climb in inclement weather I'd think twice. We get lots of thunderstorms in spring and fall when climbing can be miserable. When my tower was taking 3 visually verified hits per year, they quickly proved impractical and expensive. The capacitance and inductance of the coax usually reduces the differential voltage to the point where the protective device at the base of the tower survives. If the strike is powerful enough to damage the coax, it's also going to take out connectors and probably do a lot of damage "up there". I've had strikes that removed all the weatherproofing as well as the silver plating on the connectors, leaving them looking like sandblasted brass, yet the coax was not damaged nor were the internal parts of the coax connectors. I did have to replace two Polyphasers. One at the tower base and one at the CPG plate at the house entrance for the coax to the 2-meter array. Other than the weatherproofing and the plating on the connectors there was no additional damage. The rigs were hooked up and on at the time of that strike.

About the Northern half of the US suffers from frozen ground. Some areas with many freeze, thaw cycles. These cycles cause stones (large and small) to slowly move toward the surface with lots of power that can easily puncture most coax jackets. BuryFlex (TM) has a great advantage here. So damage from above is not the only worry. However, direct bury where the ground freezes for a third of the year limits your options in case of failure making conduit a better choice. Again, BuryFlex (TM) is much easier to pull than most other cables. If the run is long and conduit is not an option (Sewer pipe is cheap and works as good as conduit if buried deep enough). Although not as durable as schedule 40 PVC, it sure beats direct bury up here.

BTW the past few years the frost has only penetrated to about a quarter of what it did when we moved here in 84. We used to be able to get some pretty heavy equipment into the yard once the ground froze, but not recently

The other point, although the grounding kits are the most efficient, up through 2-meters, I use grounded bulkhead connectors at the top and bottom of the tower. Yes, I know those losses add up, but for HF and low VHF are they worth any concern? With the patch panel, 6-pack for SO2R and remote antenna switches I may have as many as 10 connectors in a 220 foot coax run with the loss still being miniscule as calculated and as measured via the AIM.

Between complete stations (1.8 through 440) in the shop and house, plus the SO2R operation, I have close to 100 total coax connectors. Although I'd prefer DIN, I have type N for the 144 and 440 bands and UHF for the lower bands.. That's a lot of connectors to change, but I am looking for some at a good price.

BuryFlex(TM) as a rotator loop. I have used a 2 turn coil about 16 to 18 inches in diameter laying on the flat tower top plate. It certainly could be less than that. It's tough, slippery, and flexible which makes it ideal for rotator loops.

73

Roger  (K8RI)



On 8/2/2015 12:43 PM, Stephen Davis wrote:
John and Charlie are correct, no need, and physically impractical, to be running one type of coax all the way to top and or to antenna.  
Noted was Bury-Flex ™ . At HF & VHF , the attenuation difference is minimal, LMR400 vs. Bury-Flex ™  (I'm partial to 
Bury-Flex ™ ….maybe say I'm biased because I designed it).  Although I don't know the length you have to run, thus the actual 
attenuation difference. I can provide that to you for any choice of cable you want to analyze, just need freqcy range of the application and 
length.   Bury-Flex ™ can be used as a rotor loop, just add about 20% more length than you would for an RG-213 or similar loop.   LMR 
400 UF for a loop:  NO,  the outer jacket is TPR, won't last as long as Bury-Flex ™  or  9913F7.     We can equip you with any coax 
you want.  1/2" Heliax you can direct bury (same for LMR-600,  the 600 also comes in a DB (direct bury)  but you will be OK using their 
std. 600, it has exactly the same outer jacket PE, the DB just has the "Grease" which is only there to fill any knick in the outer 
jacket if you just happen to drive a stake, or roto till (yikes, in the area of your cherished buried cable  HI) in errant fashion.
The grease will also act as a thermal barrier against wide swing temperature 
inversion… but that usually is only an issue where moisture is already inside 
and the temp drops a lot.  Or you take the reel of cable from your 70 deg F  , into 
cold outdoor temps.
Grounding the shields: we have some not so expensive grounding kits which you just cut away the out coax insuation, clamp it on and the other end of the grounding wire that comes with it
can be clamped to tower leg.  Yes, it is real good idea to ground at top and 
bottom, but that theory usually is associated with using an inline surge 
protector, Polyp[haswer, at top and bottom. Without the surge protector, the 
only thing you are really giving a ground path for is the outer shield 
conductor vs. the center conductor would also be protected with a Polyphaser 
device.
Lastly, don't worry about putting connectors into the coax feed line, i.e. bottom and top of tower, at the entrance panel to your house or shack, and
a transition at the drip loop.  So many hams worry about insertion loss of 
connectors and adaptors.  THe max insertion loss of a good commercial grade 
connector or adaptor is only .200 dB
at the MUF of the connector.  UHF females and males (SO 239 and PL 259 )  are 
MUF 300 MHz.  The X to Y is linear so  if you are operating at 30 MHz, you 
insertion loss would be
30/300 =  .10  X  .200 at MUF =  .02 dB per connector or adaptor.
73 Steve, K1PEK DAVIS RF Co.


  On Aug 2, 2015, at 9:42 AM, towertalk-request@contesting.com wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: LMR600 up to the top of tower ? (Charlie Gallo)
   2. Re: LMR600 up to the top of tower ? (Steve Sacco NN4X)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 22:02:45 -0400
From: Charlie Gallo <Charlie@TheGallos.com>
To: john@kk9a.com
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR600 up to the top of tower ?
Message-ID: <1210224415.20150801220245@TheGallos.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


On 8/1/2015 john@kk9a.com wrote:

I would never run one piece of coax underground that far and then up the
tower, especially with a crank-up.  The tower piece will likely get damaged
at some point.  LMR600 is not that flexible and certainly would not be good
for your rotator loop.  I would direct bury large Heliax underground and
then use something flexible and tough (like Belden 8267) on the crank-up
tower.
John KK9A
Yep  -  Remember,  your coax shield should be tied to the tower at the
bottom AND the top.  (Gee,  yes  you can carefully strip the outer jacket and 
bond,
but  easiest way is something like a PL-259 bulkhead connector mounted
to the tower (or polyphasor or similar - at least at the bottom)

You  can  easily  transition from one type of coax to another at these
points - tun the 600 to the bottom of the tower, and then buryflex (or
say  LMR400)  up, and then transition to something flexible at the top
ground  point.  All done, simple, and you are on your way to the start
of proper grounding too
--
73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo
Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm)

www.baysidephoto.com
www.thegallos.com



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--

73

Roger (K8RI)



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