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Re: [TowerTalk] Brake Winches

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Brake Winches
From: "Roger (K8RI) on TT" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk@tm.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 04:15:56 -0400
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Having used winches and worm gear/worm gear wheels in industry, and in ham radio for over 50 years I can only go by experience which shows far less effort to raise a given load using a good worm gear winch. Yes, the worm gear has far more contact area between the worm gear driver and the worm gear wheel which would reduce the efficiency. I have not seen any really good worm gear to worm gear wheels used in the ham world for raising towers including my Dayton. Although it certainly makes raising the 1300# LM470 far easier. The winch sees a far greater load than the 1300#, but I've not measured the dimensions, or angle to calculate the loads. It's just a 50:1 worm gear is far easier to use raising that 1800# tower compared to a 15 or 20:1 spur gear.

A good worm gear to worm gear wheel has a finely machined and/or lapped interface that is polished. The area of contact is sliding as it is in spur gears, but that area is far greater in the worm gear to worm gear wheel and 90 degrees to the movement of the driven gear. Compare a precision worm gear to worm gear wheel (polished steel worm gear to brass worm gear wheel) to those in the winches we use Stamped steel on steel with a minimum of machining. Without going into the manufacturing steps, the stamped gears are much less expensive to make.

I disagree with two points in the article. You can reverse direction on a loaded worm gear/worm gear wheel and a high viscosity grease is no longer needed to lubricate the gear interfaces. Greases like BR2 are very slippery and of a viscosity used in standard grease guns like Alemite . It's not clear, but he may be referring to the self breaking action, but depending on load, the worm gear can run under load in either direction. The friction varies greatly depending on the size of the gears and the load applied. Large gears with heavy loads do indeed have substantial friction.

"Used to be"(I worked in maintenance for 26 years before earning a degree in CS), we used a black, thick, and gooey grease affectionately known as bear grease, or "similar" names. Get a little on your hands and you'd look like you had bathed in it by the time you got back to the shop and it was very difficult to wash off. We used it on small worm gears and 45 degree beveled gears. Mainly it was used (in our operation) to prevent vibration, or mechanical resonance in sensitive areas.

Other than the vibration issue, we switched to the BR2 grease for reduced friction.

One shortcoming of the stamped, steel on steel gears, is they are often assembled with excess pressure between the worm gear and worm gear wheel and depend on the gears "wearing in". Winches using this approach can require a lot of effort to use with a notable reduction in effort over the first few hours of use. (hours of use on a winch?)

In a more crude gear system, like the winches which use steel on steel rather than steel on brass, where they depend on wear to get the proper mating surfaces I'd like to try the proper mating of the gear interfaces. If I had the time, money, and two working hands, I'd like to try lapping the crude gears with ever finer grades of lapping compounds until they give a proper, smooth, interface and use a good grease meant for a high pressure mating surface as in these winches. Lapping gears has a steep learning curve with a fine line between too much and too little.

One change I'd make would be to add zerks to the worm gear bearings so they could be properly lubricated.

Mating surface match, mating area, smoothness, and lubrication are crucial to the proper operation of the worm gear and worm gear wheel with minimum drag.

Quoting the article's conclusion:
"In Conclusion: Although a worm gear will always have a few complications compared to a standard gear set, it can easily be an effective and reliable piece of equipment. With a little *attention to setup and lubricant selection,* worm gears can provide reliable service as well as any other type of gear set." (bold is my change)

73

Roger (K8RI)


On 6/29/2015 5:10 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:


On 6/29/2015 1:08 PM, Roger (K8RI) on TT wrote:
That's not correct!  It's the gear ratio! Not friction that makes the
worm gear winch self braking!  I can raise my LM470 tower to vertical
with one hand using my Dayton  worm gear winch.  With the double step
down spur gear winch I could barely raise it with two hands.  It was

According to this reference:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1080/worm-gears

"A second reason to use a worm gear is the inability to reverse the direction of power. Because of the friction between the worm and the wheel, it is virtually impossible for a wheel with force applied to it to start the worm moving."

The reference goes into a lot of detail about the many disadvantages
of worm gears, which was my original point:  they have their place
but are no panacea.

My Fulton KW3000 has a 50:1 ratio.  It requires about the same effort
going down as the previous Fulton KW2550 with only a 25:1 ratio. Going up, the effort with the worm gear winch is double that of the spur gear winch. And the effort scales with the load, just like friction. We can argue whether it needs friction to work, but the fact of the matter is that it has a boatload of friction. I measured the handle force with a torque wrench and it is over 60 foot pounds worst case.
I really wanted the safety aspect of a worm gear winch, so I replaced
the KW3000 with a motor driven 6000 pound winch with a 12 inch ring gear. IMHO, both of these winches are only good for about half
their rated lift.

A good worm gear winch has more friction than a spur gear winch, but
turns "MUCH EASIER" than a spur gear winch for the same load. I have

Again, that hasn't been my experience.  As always, YMMV.

Rick N6RK
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73

Roger (K8RI)


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