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Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical vs Beam

To: "'Bill Aycock'" <billaycock@centurytel.net>, "'Michael Tope'" <W4EF@dellroy.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical vs Beam
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Reply-to: lists@subich.com
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:59:14 -0400
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>

> Thanks, much. It is interesting that, as far as I can recall, 
> yours is the first reference (Directly) to the QST article. I 
> had forgotten it (Senior moment?) I must go back and re-read.

The radials were added at WWVH after field strength testing showed 
that the half wave verticals failed to produce the expected field 
strength due to e-field losses in the ground below the bottom end 
of the antenna.  While the radials did not effect the feed point 
impedance they provided a significant improvement in field strength. 

> About the radials-- I saw an indirect reference that the 
> radial field was an FCC REQUIREMENT. (?) 
 
120 1/2 wave radials are a FCC requirement for AM antennas 
irrespective of the height of the radiator - even when the 
radiator is in the vicinity of .5 wavelength.  The radials 
can only be eliminated by showing that an installation is not 
possible and/or the required field strength can be obtained 
without them. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com 
> [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Aycock
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:45 PM
> To: Michael Tope
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com; N7mal; John Geiger; Robert Redmon
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical vs Beam
> 
> 
> Mike-
> Thanks, much. It is interesting that, as far as I can recall, 
> yours is the 
> first reference (Directly) to the QST article. I had 
> forgotten it (Senior 
> moment?) I must go back and re-read.
> About the radials-- I saw an indirect reference that the 
> radial field was an 
> FCC REQUIREMENT. (?)   I am not impressed by the expertise 
> shown by the WWV 
> web site.
> I still see (in my own mind) confusion in terminology 
> concerning the terms, 
> 1/2 wave monopole; 1/4 wave vertical with skirt;  1/2 wave 
> vertical Dipole; 
> etc. I need to check some more in some Handbooks, and maybe 
> Kraus.  More 
> re-reading.  It seems to me that calling their antennas "1/2 
> wave dipoles" 
> is incorrect.
> 
> Bill--W4BSG
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com>
> To: "Bill Aycock" <billaycock@centurytel.net>
> Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>; "N7mal" <n7mal@citlink.net>; 
> "John Geiger" 
> <aa5jg@yahoo.com>; "Robert Redmon" <k5sm.bob@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical vs Beam
> 
> 
> > Bill Aycock wrote:
> >
> >> As far as the subject of 1/2 wave verticals goes, the WWV 
> site leaves 
> >> out a LOT! 1. Where is the feed point?
> >
> > The upper 1/4 wave of the 1/2 wave monopole is insulated. 
> The antenna 
> > is fed with coax at this point against the skirt wires. This is 
> > described in the QST article and can be scene in the 
> picture link of 
> > the WWVH antenna that W4TV posted.
> >
> >> 2.  what is the feed point impedance?
> >
> > The article says 50 ohms.
> >
> >> 3.  Are the lower ends of the "guys" grounded?
> >
> > No, the article indicates they are insulated
> >
> >> 4. Why is it important that the Coax feeds do not cross?
> >
> > Makes for a neat installation, but I can't imagine that it 
> makes any 
> > difference to performance whatsoever.
> >
> >> Does anyone know?
> >> Are the arrangements of the TTers with 1/2 wave verticals 
> like WWV, 
> >> and if not, why reference it?
> >
> > Probably not exactly, Bill. I thought the point in the article QST 
> > where they mentioned the ground radials not impacting feedpoint 
> > impedance somewhat paralleled N3OX's experience. The article also 
> > mentions the expected gain over a 1/4 wave monopole (1.7dB).
> >
> > One interesting thing is that per the picture link that 
> W4TV posted, 
> > they elected to use ground radials in the WWVH 
> installation, but they 
> > did not in the WWV installation (the QST article claims 
> that when it 
> > was determined tha the radials didn't effect input impedance it was 
> > decided not to include them in the installation). Perhaps 
> radials were 
> > added later at WWV (my understanding is that they were only 
> included 
> > for the two backup broadband monopoles antennas). I would be 
> > interested if anyone can confirm this. This speaks to previous 
> > discussions as to what field strength benefit is derived by 
> including 
> > radials under a 1/2 wave vertical dipole.
> >
> > 73, Mike W4EF...........................
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > 
> 
> 
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