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Re[4]: [TowerTalk] Mismatch Loss and Tuners

To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re[4]: [TowerTalk] Mismatch Loss and Tuners
From: sbest@cushcraft.com (sbest@cushcraft.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 13:32:16

     Paul:
     
     In response to your direct question, I associate voltage directly with 
     the term wave.  An EM wave having a certain "voltage" and "current" is 
     traveling along the length of the transmission line.  At any point 
     along the line, the voltage and current level of the wave will be a 
     function of input voltage to the line, the line attenuation, the line 
     length and the line phase properties.
     
     Voltage delivered back to the tuner input:  In the steady state 
     condition, there will be a steady state voltage developed at the tuner 
     output.  This steady state voltage will be equal to the voltage 
     created at the tuner output from the arriving reflected wave(s) 
     originating at the antenna plus the reflected voltage created from 
     these incident waves.  The reflected voltage(s) at the tuner output 
     are equal to the incident voltage multiplied by the tuner output 
     reflection coefficient.
     
     Since a voltage is developed across the tuner output it must be 
     divided/delivered/flow into the individual components within the 
     tuner.  It can't just "stop" at any one tuner component. When the math 
     is done in detail, it can be proven that the resulting voltage at the 
     tuner input is the negative of the initial reflected voltage at the 
     tuner input.  When added together, these two voltages cancel and hence 
     the initial reflected "wave" is canceled.  Since there is no 
     reflection, the tuner appears to have a 1.0:1 VSWR. This is the basis 
     upon which a conjugate match tuner works.  It is important to note 
     that the steady state condition must be reached in order for the tuner 
     to work properly.  
     
     I have derived all the math in detail.  If interested I can send it 
     along.
     
     73
     Steve VE9SRB
     
     


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [TowerTalk] Mismatch Loss and Tuners
Author:  "Paul Christensen" <paulc@mediaone.net> at InterNet
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date:    8/25/98 1:02 PM


I was with you on your first two paragraphs, but when I read the following 
statement, it was time to ask for clarification:
     
>     voltage at the tuner output.  This voltage will be delivered back to 
>     the tuner input through the tuner components.  The voltage delivered 
>     back to the tuner input will be the negative of the initial reflected 
>     voltage at the tuner input causing a complete cancellation of the
>     initial reflection. Hence, the steady state 1.0:1 VSWR.
     
Let's not confuse the application of the following added elements, all of 
which contribute to what is being discussed here:  Voltage on the 
transmission line, current on the transmission line, the forward wave, the 
reflected wave, and the phase relationship between voltage and current on 
the transmission line.
     
What I don't understand is your application of the term "voltage delivered 
back to the tuner input," and "ALL of the voltage will not be re-reflected." 
The "wave" is moving and reflecting, not the voltage.  The 
antenna-to-transmission line mismatch creates a reflected wave, not a 
reflected voltage.  True, the reflected wave's voltage will be 180-degrees 
out of phase with the reflected current.  From your statement above, how are 
we getting to a 1:1 based on your fourth paragraph?
     
-Paul, W9AC
     
     
     
     
     
>
>     The difference between this discussion and that of Walt Maxwell's is 
>     that Walt does not start by considering the initial state of the
>     tuner. He immediately "assumes" that all of the transmitter power is
>     delivered through the tuner, some is reflected by the antenna and then 
>     ALL is re-reflected at the tuner output.  His initial assumption may
>     support his conclusion but it does not accurately describe the 
>     operation of the tuner, nor all of the voltage reflections and
>     cancellations that occur.  With a lossless transmission line between 
>     the tuner and antenna his results are numerically correct, however, I 
>     am uncertain if this would be true when considering a case with
>     transmission line attenuation. 
>
>     In any event, even considering the transmission line losses, the 
>     matched antenna will radiate more steady state power than the
>     mismatched antenna and tuner.  Remember that with the tuner, the
>     reflections from the antenna must travel the transmission line twice 
>     before arriving back at the antenna.
>
>     Which "works" better - matched antenna or mismatched antenna/tuner? 
>     The answer to this question requires a much more involved analysis. 
>     In order to "work", the transmit system only needs to provide a
>     useable signal level at the receive site.  In many cases, both will 
>     "work" quite well.
>
>     73, Steve, VE9SRB
>
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Mismatch Loss and Tuners 
>Author:  kn6di@groupone.net
>Organization: Global Pack & Mail at InterNet 
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Date:    8/24/98 10:22 PM
>
>
>Wouldn't be great if people could talk in plain english and discuss this 
thread
>in a straight forward manner instead of every one trying to get the last 
piece
>of fly S--- out of the black pepper.
>It would be nice for a plain statement of facts of what works and does not 
work.
>As we know no 2 antennas work the same because the conditions are not/never 
the
>same. This could go on until cycle 30 at least. 
>Hank KN6DI
>
>
>J
>
>
>--
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>
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>
     

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