I compared numbers from my Daiwa CN720B to the Bird numbers and got:
20w my Po was 3% low.
10w my Po was 5% low
5w my Po was 28% low.
Cant imagine how the below 5w numbers might compare. as the trend was
accelerating. :)
Bob
-----------------------------------------From:
topband-request@contesting.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday November 10 2021 12:02:16PM
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 13
Send Topband mailing list submissions to
topband@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
/> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: cheap radial wire? (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
2. Re: cheap radial wire? (James Wolf)
3. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
4. Balloon Supported Vertical (Dick Bingham)
5. Re: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8 (Fraser Robertson)
6. Re: cheap radial wire? (n0tt1@juno.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:01:30 -0700
From: W0MU Mike Fatchett
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: cheap radial wire?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I believe this wire is insulated.? It is for things like an invisible
fence.? I am not sure what it is made of.
W0MU
On 11/9/2021 9:21 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>> Dog electronic fence wire via ebay.
> Bad idea, except maybe for field day or some other temporary setup
due
> to rust. Also, long thin runs of steel may not return RF well.
>
> For permanence it's a lot better to invest in 3000 feet copper that
> can provide sixty 50 foot radials. That will at least get you in
fair
> shape with an inverted L. But, I get that copper price is out of
> sight now so if you don't mind wasted effort, experimentation with
> cheaper alternatives might be worth it. Just be prepared to have
them
> rust away or vanish in the case of aluminum. It might be advisable
to
> find out about your soil acidity before doing anything.
>
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _________________
> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband [1] -
Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:18:29 -0500
From: "James Wolf"
To:
Subject: Re: Topband: cheap radial wire?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I would add to the conversation that you must know what type of
insulation is on the wire. I picked up about 5000 ft. of 20 ga. wire
at a hamfest and I used it to put down about 70 radials on my shunt
fed tower. I also used it for a dog fence. About four years later, the
dog fence wire started failing. The insulation had gotten hard and
would crack. Once it cracked, I assume that the moisture in the ground
along with the soil acidity dissolved the wire. I don't know what the
insulation was, but I had to completely re-do both the dog fence and
the radial field. I went with Teflon insulation 30 years ago and have
not had a failure.
I've not heard of dog fence wire insulation failing, so there must be
insulation on it that will endure the conditions in the ground.
Jim - KR9U
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:44:48 -0700
From: W0MU Mike Fatchett
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
We tried a balloon vertical at V47 in the 80's.? We used an
advertising
balloon.? It kinda worked but it kept getting pin holes in it.? We
believe it was from the sand in the air.? Our location was just off
the
end of the runway in St. Kitts. We got a visit from some official
looking official's but they just looked at it and left.? The helium
cost
us about 500 dollars if I remember right.
The new kite type balloons probably would work much better.
W0MU
On 11/9/2021 8:10 AM, Grant Saviers wrote:
> Having watched/been watched by the TARS aerostat radar off the
coast
> of FL, I would think that the "balloon" shape that generates lift
with
> wind would be the better choice for 160m verticals.
>
> Helikite also balloon plus kite
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allsopp_Helikite
/> >
> Never tried one, but then a challenge is the wire strong enough to
> counter the max wind lift.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
> On 11/8/2021 18:24, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>> As others have mentioned losing the balloon and/or getting hung up
in
>> nearby hazards is a serious risk. Consider this, learned from
flying
>> them from my sailboat.
>>
>> What if the tether point for the balloon is raised above the
>> surrounding terrain? In my case I was trying to make a 45-50
>> foot/13-15 meter vertical longer. My setup involved raising the
>> tether point for the balloon above the ground/feed-point. The
tether
>> point for the balloon was nearly 50 feet/15 meters above the water
so
>> when the wind blew it was pivoting at that point rather than at
>> ground level and subjected to all the closer hazards.
>>
>> Have a pushup mast? Try setting it up so the balloon is actually
>> tethered from the top of the mast rather than at ground level.
This
>> is a whole new ballgame. A scrap of graph ruled paper will easily
>> sort it all out.
>>
>> I got it down during the day by using a plastic cable tie ring
slid
>> over the wire and attached to a piece of fishing line. Walking
away
>> from the mast allowed me to pull on the ring and get the down-pull
>> process started. Once a bit of the support wire/line moved thru
the
>> ring the rest came down easily.
>>
>> At the time the boat was out on the end of a dock with no other
>> sailboats and their pesky masts close by. Even when the 20+ knot
>> winds were laying the balloon supported wire almost horizontal it
was
>> free of physical hazards. While the transition from vertical to
>> Inverted L during the gusts made the tuner in rig go nuts at least
>> there was no physical damage.
>>
>> Just an option to consider.
>>
>> W7TMT
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2] -
Topband
>> Reflector
>>
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [3] -
Topband
> Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:15:56 -0800
From: Dick Bingham
To: Topband
Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Greetings to All !
Thank you to everyone who has responded to my original note.
Looks like I will have to do my own search for the balloons as
no one included a source for them BUT did include lots of great
user info.
Again, thanks.
As in my past, I will be generating the H2 gas where chillers are
used to control the rate of gas generation (minimizes H2O vapor
condensing inside the balloon).
A medium sized party balloon supported my first attempt at a
L/2 160-meter vertical that used thin wire (maybe #28). In
still air it was nearly vertical above me but in the wind it would
approach 45-degree angles to the horizon.
All worked well and I was able to work many East coast QSO's
(70-W) until it started raining. The added weight of water on the
balloon brought it to the ground. Some will say the losses using
such small wire are excessive - probably true - but while it was
operational, it performed better than any antenna I could hide
at my HOA antenna restricted QTH.
Again, my thank you to everyone who responded.
73 Dick - w7wkr at CN97uj
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 23:31:39 +0000
From: Fraser Robertson
To: Jim Kinney
Cc: Greg Chartrand , "topband@contesting.com"
Subject: Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I bought a conyne delta kite for lifting antennas once. It had 400'
of cord on it and would sit there high in the sky not moving. Sadly I
never had the opportunity to hang an antenna from it. You need a lot
of space, with no trees.
73, Fraser G4BJM
Get Outlook for Android
/> ________________________________
From: Jim Kinney
Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 2021 2:27:43 PM
To: Fraser Robertson
Cc: Greg Chartrand ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
What about using a kite? Dad used to have a WW2 Air Force box kite
used for emergency communication by downed pilots. We didn't have the
antenna wire so it usually broke whatever string we tried to fly it
with, but it would easily have lifted a 160m vertical.
Jim WE4S
Get BlueMail for Android
On Nov 9, 2021, at 5:37 AM, Fraser Robertson wrote:
I did this some decades back using met balloons, they were about 4-5'
diameter, supporting a 1/2 wave or 5/8 antenna. The wire must have a
DC path to ground to discharge static.
I bought the balloons from a carnival novelty shop!
They work great of course, but no use if it's windy.
There was a company selling helikites, a cross between a kite and a
balloon, not sure if they're still around though.
73 Fraser G4BJM
Get Outlook for Android
/> ________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Greg Chartrand via Topband
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 11:38:12 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
look at this160m-balloon-antenna
|
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
160m-balloon-antenna
|
|
|
---------------------Greg ChartrandRichland, WA.
On Monday, November 8, 2021, 03:03:33 PM PST,
topband-request@contesting.com wrote:
Send Topband mailing list submissions to
topband@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
/> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
topband-request@contesting.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
topband-owner@contesting.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Balloon Supported Vertical (Dick Bingham)
2. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Jim Brown)
3. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Pete Smith N4ZR)
4. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
5. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
6. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
7. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
8. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
9. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mike Smith VE9AA)
10. cheap radial wire? (Greg Davis)
11. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
12. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
13. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:48:14 -0800
From: Dick Bingham
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:00:25 -0800
From: Jim Brown
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: W6JTI
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still
does,
although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few years).
73, Jim K9YC
________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:16:56 -0500
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Here's an interesting source -
https://balloonmarket.co.uk/lift-ability.? [6] Looks like one of the
last
couple in the table should be big enough - say 5 feet in diameter for
starters.
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
On 11/8/2021 4:00 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still
does, although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few
years).
73, Jim K9YC
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [8] - Topband
Reflector
________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:17:53 -0600
From: Mark - N5OT
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift.? One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
of
testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but
under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine
from
a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [9] - Topband
Reflector
________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:26:49 +0000
From: W7TMT - Patrick
To: Dick Bingham , "topband@contesting.com"
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>From personal experience I can tell you that a 2 foot Mylar balloon
is not nearly big enough to carry a wire for 160. I used one to fly a
45? length of 26 gauge wire to bring the total of a vertical I had
rigged up on my sailboat to 90?. It had enough lift for that until the
wind came up.
BTW, if you were to use that wire size and admit it publicly you?ll
quickly be told it has too little surface area for use on 160 and the
vendor will even add a note to their Web site saying so. No matter
that the antenna that would not load before did, and the contest was
won for your section not withstanding.
Brian N9ADG has a well documented explanation of what it takes here.
He currently holds both the ARRL and CQWW 160 records for this section
(WWA). As I recall at least one of the records was set using that
antenna, perhaps both.
http://n9adg.com/antennas/86/
/>
Patrick, W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Dick Bingham
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 12:48:14 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [11] -
Topband Reflector
________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:54:35 +0000
From: W7TMT - Patrick
To: Mark - N5OT , TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Mark - N5OT
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
of
testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine
from
a party supply store. It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [13] -
Topband Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [14] -
Topband Reflector
________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:02:53 +1000
From: Adrian
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I have been doing it here for well over a year. I originally set it
all
up with a 1/4w vertical for 630m,
'which performs very well., Then also 160m and 80m using 3/4w lengths
For 160m I use 90cm latex balloons fully inflated. I use the online
wind
forecast showing area
wind velocity and direction. Over 7km/h it is a waste of time. A
small
wind velocity 5km/h and less is beneficial
if the direction is away from the target DX. It becomes directional
back
in from the line lean angle.
A slight breeze above 7km/h will bring the balloon down quickly, and
getting snagged in trees with gusts is a common issue.
It is a game of luck as often the wind forecast is inaccurate, but
when
all is well it is unbeatable.
I use a G size industrial supply Helium bottle, for which I also pay
rent monthly. It is still cheaper than a tower,
that would never get approval on a small block. As the activity is at
night it is reasonably stealth.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 06:48, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [15] -
Topband Reflector
________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:14:37 +1000
From: Adrian
To: W7TMT - Patrick , Mark - N5OT
, TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Even here the industrial stuff is not 'pure' helium.
They don't admit this until questioned. Helium molecules being
smaller
leak through the latex skin leaving the bigger air molecules trapped
behind.
After the session, I usually bring the balloons back into the house
and
untie them after a few days for re-use,
but for a smaller 80m use size, as they deteriorate and often pop if
re-reinflated to original size.
After 2-3 days on the ceiling and reducing to 1/3 -1/4 size they sink
to
the floor, indicating the residual gas is
not helium, otherwise it would still float. Some have said it is
safety
feature for people not to black out when breathing
the gas for the funny voice gag, Otherwise it is just paying for what
you don't need, to be legally ripped off.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Mark - N5OT
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
of
testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine
from
a party supply store. It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [17] -
Topband Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [18] -
Topband Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [19] -
Topband Reflector
________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:17:49 -0400
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA"
To:
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dick,
I see you're getting some replies trickling in already.
Two feet won't do it I don't think my friend....not even close.
In 1997 @ CY9AA (St. Paul's Island) we had a balloon supported 160m
vertical
using a very fine uninsulated wire (and I think maybe kite string
too). I
was not in charge of this part of the expedition (VE1PZ was our
topband guy)
but I am pretty sure we used a 4-5' - "rubber" balloon. (could've
been
latex or something similar)
We eventually lost our balloons to sharp rocks, so lacking any other
method
or access to a store, hi) we blew up a few green garbage bags,
(doublebagged) which surprisingly lasted a few hours or maybe
more..where
there's a will, there's a way.
We were pretty loud in EU and elsewhere, right over salt water.
I think Doug (VE1PZ) went to a specialty (welding?) store to get the
gas. I
have no idea what it was-pure helium I presume, but you can see the
orange
tank in one 24yr old photo here:
http://www.uksmg.org/content/cy9photo.htm
/>
Good luck !
Mike VE9AA..ex cy9aa, cy0aa
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:20:21 -0500
From: Greg Davis
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: cheap radial wire?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hello Topbanders,
I recently reached out directly to a few people who had posted
recently(ish) to this email reflector who had described purchasing
large
amounts of wire for radials at a (relative) bargain price.
However, after a couple of weeks of waiting, none of those emails
have been
responded to. I've got a new-and-improved plan for my 160m vertical
in my
back yard, but, at this moment in time, the biggest thing holding me
back
is the wire for a sufficient radial field. Do any of you have spools
of
wire you're willing to sell to me if the price is right? Or
suggestions for
me where I can purchase it for a reasonable price?
Thank you.
73 de Greg N3ZL
________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:21:34 +1000
From: Adrian
To: W7TMT - Patrick , Mark - N5OT
, TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
"
ABN 95 000 029 729
Riverside Corporate Park
10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
Email: contact@boc.com
2nd June 2021
Dear Adrian Fewster,
BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
equipment
from BOC Limited. Our customers
are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
products and services in addition to
ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
distribution network.
Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
listed
in the special offer pricing table
below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
individual product as varied from time
to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
listed
in the special offer pricing table
below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
prices
for each individual product and the
rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
vary in line with Supplier increases as
they are incurred.
All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
a
different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
Agent.
Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
Volume
Annual
Quantity
Delivered
Price**
Rental (per
day)##
124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
levy
of $2.38/kg also applies.
** Where a standard local delivery option is available
## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
Terms
and Conditions of Supply
Rental Pricing
Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
'G' Size$0.6822
You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
in
the last paragraph of this letter. By
accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
not
have a binding exclusive supply
arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
listed
in the special offer pricing table
above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
applicable
to your site(s) where the products are
to be used.
The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
products listed in the special offer
pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
in
this special offer pricing letter
together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
amended from time to time) (accessible
from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
requirements for the products
covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
of
formal acceptance and continues
until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
notice expiring at the end of the
minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
(one) months' notice after the expiry
of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
General
Terms and Conditions of Supply.
At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
if
you have any queries please feel
free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
business
days. "
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Mark - N5OT
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
of
testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine
from
a party supply store. It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband [25] - Topband
Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband [26] - Topband
Reflector
_________________
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Reflector
________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:32:21 -0600
From: Mark - N5OT
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or something
similar)
So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of
volume.?
Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
73 - Mark
On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
"
ABN 95 000 029 729
Riverside Corporate Park
10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
Email: contact@boc.com
2nd June 2021
Dear Adrian Fewster,
BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
equipment
from BOC Limited. Our customers
are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
products and services in addition to
ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
distribution network.
Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
listed in the special offer pricing table
below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
individual product as varied from time
to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
listed in the special offer pricing table
below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
prices
for each individual product and the
rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
vary in line with Supplier increases as
they are incurred.
All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
a
different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
Agent.
Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
Volume
Annual
Quantity
Delivered
Price**
Rental (per
day)##
124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
** Where a standard local delivery option is available
## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
Terms and Conditions of Supply
Rental Pricing
Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
'G' Size$0.6822
You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
in the last paragraph of this letter. By
accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
not
have a binding exclusive supply
arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
listed in the special offer pricing table
above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
applicable to your site(s) where the products are
to be used.
The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
products listed in the special offer
pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
in this special offer pricing letter
together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
amended from time to time) (accessible
from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
requirements for the products
covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
of
formal acceptance and continues
until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
notice expiring at the end of the
minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
(one) months' notice after the expiry
of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
General
Terms and Conditions of Supply.
At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
if you have any queries please feel
free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
business
days. "
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on
behalf of Mark - N5OT
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
of
testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but
under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine
from
a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? [33] -
Topband
Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? [34] -
Topband
Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? [35] -
Topband
Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [36] -
Topband
Reflector
________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 09:02:06 +1000
From: Adrian
To: Mark - N5OT , TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Here, for full size 90cm - 1m balloons it works out around $20 au
helium
per balloon, plus $2 balloon plus $5-10 average line loss.
So a night session is around $30 au in costs on average, and only
when
conditions are right, otherwise you are wasting your time and $.
The bigger the industrial bottle you can purchase the better the
deal.
Also you can negotiate price with the supplier, I cut my original
offer price nearly in half as well is 25% off my rental. Recommended
retail compared to a trade customer pricing has big pricing
difference.
In the USA you should be able to do it for $20 or less per balloon.
Also
using too big a balloon is wasting helium $ and increasing line break
risk.
I use difference inflation levels for each band 630m biggest to 80m
smallest. If I re-use balloons, i only use them on 80m , which is the
smaller inflation.
A bigger balloon gets hit harder and creates much more line stress
with
sudden gusts. The advantage of using 3/4 w setups is if the break is
at the
1/4w point (trees house etc) the impedance change to the amp is not
so
dramatic and the LDMOS amp in low survives the event on swr trip.
Watching the swr real-time on the SPE, and have a finger on the halt
button has saved gear here. A sudden wind change and a 2nd story
gutter
contact can just
blow the line at the contact point during TX, and its start again,
but
the amp remains good.
As the line changes angle the swr changes with it, and with
experience
trouble can be avoided.
The lift force should just be in excess of the total line weight,
less
than 2:1.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 08:32, Mark - N5OT wrote:
we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or
something similar)
So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of
volume.?
Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
73 - Mark
On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
"
ABN 95 000 029 729
Riverside Corporate Park
10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
Email: contact@boc.com
2nd June 2021
Dear Adrian Fewster,
BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
equipment from BOC Limited. Our customers
are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
products and services in addition to
ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
distribution network.
Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
listed in the special offer pricing table
below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
individual product as varied from time
to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
listed in the special offer pricing table
below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
prices for each individual product and the
rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
vary in line with Supplier increases as
they are incurred.
All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
a different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
Agent.
Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
Volume
Annual
Quantity
Delivered
Price**
Rental (per
day)##
124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
** Where a standard local delivery option is available
## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
Terms and Conditions of Supply
Rental Pricing
Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
'G' Size$0.6822
You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
in the last paragraph of this letter. By
accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
not have a binding exclusive supply
arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
listed in the special offer pricing table
above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
applicable to your site(s) where the products are
to be used.
The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
products listed in the special offer
pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
in this special offer pricing letter
together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
amended from time to time) (accessible
from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
requirements for the products
covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
of formal acceptance and continues
until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
notice expiring at the end of the
minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
(one) months' notice after the expiry
of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
General Terms and Conditions of Supply.
At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
if you have any queries please feel
free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
business days. "
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband on
behalf of Mark - N5OT
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a
lot
of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple
minutes of
testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but
under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and
have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine
from
a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical
made of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? [42] -
Topband
Reflector
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Topband
Reflector
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Reflector
________________________________
Subject: Digest Footer
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Topband@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
/>
________________________________
End of Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
***************************************
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Topband Reflector
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:10:14 +0000
From:
To: w0mu@w0mu.com,topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: cheap radial wire?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
That's right...it's insulated and is used for "invisible" dog
fencing.
I've used it
and it's just fine for radials. It's tinned copper, at least mine was
and
it came in 500ft spools.
I've also used the military "surplus" WD1-A wire. It has steel
strands
and
tinned copper strands in a tough-as-nails insulation. It's spooled up
as
a
parallel pair but is easy to separate like AC "zip cord". The only
thing
one has to look
out for is to protect the wire at the "connection end" from
rust/corrosion. I do
that by using tinned copper eye terminals, slipping on a ~1-1/2"
length
of 1/4" glue-lined heat shrink tubing onto a bundle of 4-6 wires that
have ~1/2"
of the insulation removed. Twist wires together, slip into the
terminal
and crimp, then solder to seal off the "barrel" next to the ring.
Next,
slip on the heat-shrink tubing, squirt in a small mount of silicone
ignition
grease (buy at a auto store) in the radial end of the tubing, then
heat
shrink
it on the terminal, allowing the terminal end of the tubing to shrink
around
the barrel of the terminal so that the tubing won't have a tendancy
to
slide off. Some of the silicone grease will squirt out, indicating
that
it
has likely worked its way around the wires.
All of that sounds a bit fussy and time consuming, but if it's done
in a
kind of assembly line fashion it doesn't take long at all. I
connected
more than 1260 radials on my 7-mhz 9-circle array doing that.
BTW, it is NOT necessary to seal the "distant end" of the WD1-A. I've
done
tests on that and water doesn't penetrate more than ~1/16" under the
insulation.
There appears to be a kind of dried sealant around the wires.
73,
Charlie, N0TT
On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:01:30 -0700 W0MU Mike Fatchett
writes:
> I believe this wire is insulated. It is for things like an
> invisible
> fence. I am not sure what it is made of.
>
> W0MU
>
> On 11/9/2021 9:21 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
> >> Dog electronic fence wire via ebay.
> > Bad idea, except maybe for field day or some other temporary
setup
> due
> > to rust. Also, long thin runs of steel may not return RF well.
> >
> > For permanence it's a lot better to invest in 3000 feet copper
> that
> > can provide sixty 50 foot radials. That will at least get you in
> fair
> > shape with an inverted L. But, I get that copper price is out of
> > sight now so if you don't mind wasted effort, experimentation
> with
> > cheaper alternatives might be worth it. Just be prepared to have
> them
> > rust away or vanish in the case of aluminum. It might be
> advisable to
> > find out about your soil acidity before doing anything.
> >
> > Rob
> > K5UJ
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband [49] -
Topband
> Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [50] -
Topband
> Reflector
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
/>
------------------------------
End of Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 13
****************************************
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[5] http://hotmail.com
[6] https://balloonmarket.co.uk/lift-ability.?
[7] http://beta.reversebeacon.net
[8] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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[10] http://outlook.com
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[20] http://www.boc.com
[21] http://www.boc.com
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