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Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???

To: "'Tom W8JI'" <w8ji@w8ji.com>, "'topBand List'" <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???
From: "Charles Cu nningham" <charlie-cunningham@nc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:06:25 -0400
List-post: <topband@contesting.com">mailto:topband@contesting.com>
 Hello all

It seems to me that a very fast operating preamp protection circuit could be
constructed employing a good fast saturating NPN switching transistor across
the antenna path. In receive mode the collector-base junction would have
substantial reverse bias and the transistor can be chosen for low
collector-base capacitance. With a fast switch like a 2N708 or something
similar the switching time will, of course, FAR outperform a relay closure
time. One can also add a few ohms in series with the antenna lead to reduce
the requirements for collector current in the saturating switch. That
approach should help with the switching speed and contact bounce issues.
However, if the radio design is poor and there are T/R sequencing issues -
those will require additional means to correct or deal with the improper T/R
sequencing problems. The turnoff time for the saturating switch, even at low
forced gains should be fast enough to cope with very fast keying speeds.
Just a thought.

73,
Charlie, K4OTV


-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 6:14 PM
To: topBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???

>  Your FT-747 only has one antenna input. It does not have a second
> receiver. It doesn't even have a receive-only antenna input. You cannot
> transmit and receive at same time. Why do you need a "front end saver"?

It needs a preamp saver or a receiver antenna saver, not a front end saver.

"Any old relay" will not work.

Here is what the sequence is:

1.) The radio antenna port is connected through a small relay to the receive

preamp output, or to the receive antenna

2.) The key is closed

3.) At time X, after the key is closed, something tells the receiver relay 
to release

4.) At the same time as the key is pressed, something tells the transmitter 
to transmit. Let's call this delay time Y.

Now this is where the problem is. Many radios, especially the less expensive

radios with a single antenna, have a Y time as short as X time. Some have X 
a little longer than Y, some have Y a little longer than X.  There is no 
guarantee without looking at the radio on ALL modes if X time is shorter 
than X.

Almost all radios are not 10mS, the relay time you suggested as a limit. 
Almost all radios are shorter than that, and some actually transmit while 
the external relay line is held low.

There is an additional problem in a few radios. There are a few radios that 
tell the relay control line to release while they are still transmitting. At

the end of a transmission, when you stop transmitting, a few radios will 
actually turn the external circuits off **before** they stop putting out RF 
power.  I actually had to add a RF interlock in T-R relays for amplifiers 
just for those radios.

Any relay used for this application should be as fast as possible. It should

NOT have a diode across the coil, because that slows the release time down 
considerably. I would say the safe minimum speed for most radios would be 
about a 5 mS relay transfer, including bounce. A few radios will be worse 
than that, and have almost no delay. They would require a very fast relay, 
or a sequencing system.

Some radios are designed so poorly they tell the external things to transfer

while RF is present. Those radios cannot be fixed without external interlock

systems.

By the way, if this does not damage the RX system, it will cause contact 
spark clicks. It will also fold some radios back into SWR protect because 
the relay transfers with TX RF applied.

The crummy interface timing in radios has been a nightmare ever since the 
first transceiver came out, and continues to be a problem today.

73 Tom 

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