Tree,
Thanks for clarifying your position... like many I dont want to be censored and
I promise not to assisanate too many characters.
First of all I love CW.. I was a navy radioman and I enjoy CW going to it first
before other modes ... even though my speed sucks these day due to hearing
problems (yea I know it sounds like I send with a hammer but trust me it is
hearing problems). On days when the tinitus is driving me nuts I go to digital
modes.. simple I want to be on the air. Consider this however, CW and digital
modes like JT65 typically share the CW portion of the bands.
It therefore seems logical that there should be some place in the
approximately 40khz at the bottom of top band for digltal. I listen to the
whole 40 khz every night and almost never hear anyone below 1810 EXCEPT for
W1AW. CW occupies such a small portion of the band and they not on during
contests. One of the great things about top band is the brotherhood and
competitiveness of the users. WHy should this even be an issue. I enjoy ALL
of the hobby..
Jim WA3MEJ
On 12/30/2011 04:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and
>> 50 watts on HF.
>
> Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from
> here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp
> could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about
> 500W).
>
> Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M
> in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in
> understanding his concerns.
Agreed.
I believe it would be a polite thing for all the digital ops
to happen around 1838, so as to not cause interference to the
CW ops lower in the band.
--
All rights reversed.
----- Original Message -----
From: topband-request@contesting.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:54:15 PM
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 108, Issue 87
Send Topband mailing list submissions to
topband@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: RX antenna switch (Dave G4GED)
2. Re: RX antenna switch (Joe Subich, W4TV)
3. Re: 160M JT65HF (Jim Brown)
4. Re: 160M JT65HF (Joe Subich, W4TV)
5. Re: 160M JT65HF (Rik van Riel)
6. Re: RX antenna switch (Eric Tichansky NO3M)
7. K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP), parts and winding for
isolation transformer. (Guy Olinger K2AV)
8. Folded counterpoise, recent before and after stories
(Guy Olinger K2AV)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:27:33 -0000
From: "Dave G4GED" <radiodave.g4ged@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch
To: "Brian Moran" <brianmo@yahoo.com>, "Dave Anderson, K4SV"
<davek4sv@yahoo.com>, "TopBand Reflector"
<topband@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <0905A07D70444D5795564DD9EC4BCB52@acer4d025c48b8>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Moran" <brianmo@yahoo.com>
Here's one that works for TX & Rx.
http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/projects/CoaxSwitch/CoaxSwitch.html With lockout,
etc. A homebrew version of the '6 pack' kind of box from array solutions. I
have the Array Solutions one, and it works great.
- Brian N9ADG
________________________________
Thanks Brian for the submission which I'm sure admirably suits selection of
TX/RX antennas perhaps for selection of different bands etc.
If I've read it correctly, the antennas are selected by rotary switches.
The primary need for selection of RX antennas on TopBand is to be able to
switch from any one to any other instantly without the tedium and confusion
of having to spin a rotary switch back and forth whilst trying to find best
copy out of an extreemly weak signal down in the noise.
A matrix of "quiet" interlocked push button switches would be ideal, which
require just one push to instantly change from any one antenna to any other.
Unfortunately, they're not easy to come by these days which is why I'm
thinking of a relay based solution. There's undoubtably software solutions
available to do this but I'm afraid that's out of my league, unless someone
here can pull a design out ready made for DIY!
Cheers Dave
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:00:07 -0500
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch
To: Dave G4GED <radiodave.g4ged@tiscali.co.uk>, "[Topband]"
<topband@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4EFE2657.4020404@subich.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Interlocked switches should not be necessary for receive applications.
If by interlocked you're looking for a way to deselect one antenna
when selecting the next, check K1TTT's web site. Dave had a push
button controller that would release previously selected antennas
when making a new selection. I haven't looked for it recently so you
may need to do some digging.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 12/30/2011 3:27 PM, Dave G4GED wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Moran"<brianmo@yahoo.com>
> Here's one that works for TX& Rx.
> http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/projects/CoaxSwitch/CoaxSwitch.html With lockout,
> etc. A homebrew version of the '6 pack' kind of box from array solutions. I
> have the Array Solutions one, and it works great.
> - Brian N9ADG
> ________________________________
>
> Thanks Brian for the submission which I'm sure admirably suits selection of
> TX/RX antennas perhaps for selection of different bands etc.
> If I've read it correctly, the antennas are selected by rotary switches.
> The primary need for selection of RX antennas on TopBand is to be able to
> switch from any one to any other instantly without the tedium and confusion
> of having to spin a rotary switch back and forth whilst trying to find best
> copy out of an extreemly weak signal down in the noise.
> A matrix of "quiet" interlocked push button switches would be ideal, which
> require just one push to instantly change from any one antenna to any other.
> Unfortunately, they're not easy to come by these days which is why I'm
> thinking of a relay based solution. There's undoubtably software solutions
> available to do this but I'm afraid that's out of my league, unless someone
> here can pull a design out ready made for DIY!
> Cheers Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:14:32 -0800
From: Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF
To: topband@contesting.com
Message-ID: <4EFE29B8.3060006@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and
> 50 watts on HF.
Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from
here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp
could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about
500W).
Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M
in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in
understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd
love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy to
post it on mine if someone were to collect it.
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:33:00 -0500
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF
To: jim@audiosystemsgroup.com, "[Topband]" <topband@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4EFE2E0C.5040208@subich.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on
> 160M in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in
> understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd
> love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy
> to post it on mine if someone were to collect it.
Dennis N0CKD/N4CKD used to maintain such a list ... I don't know
if it is still available. EI8IC also has a similar list at:
http://www.mapability.com/ei8ic/contest/topband.php but it appears
to have not been updated over the entire last sunspot cycle ...
K8ND also has a list here (dated 9 September 2010):
http://www.k8nd.com/Radio/Planning/CQWW160/160FrequencyAllocation.pdf
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 12/30/2011 4:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and
>> 50 watts on HF.
>
> Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from
> here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp
> could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about
> 500W).
>
> Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M
> in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in
> understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd
> love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy to
> post it on mine if someone were to collect it.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _______________________________________________
> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:23:17 -0500
From: Rik van Riel <riel@surriel.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF
To: topband@contesting.com
Message-ID: <4EFE39D5.2020803@surriel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/30/2011 04:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and
>> 50 watts on HF.
>
> Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from
> here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp
> could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about
> 500W).
>
> Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M
> in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in
> understanding his concerns.
Agreed.
I believe it would be a polite thing for all the digital ops
to happen around 1838, so as to not cause interference to the
CW ops lower in the band.
--
All rights reversed.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:41:33 -0500
From: Eric Tichansky NO3M <no3m@no3m.net>
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch
To: topband@contesting.com
Message-ID: <4EFE3E1D.3070101@no3m.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
System similar to what you mentioned regarding the gain
compensation/distribution, HPF/BPFs, RX overload, PTT, and
additional signal path sources and output routing (incl. looping
back): http://no3m.net/index.php?page=signal-processor
Has an on-board embedded MPU, but a header can be used w/
switches for manual control.
73/HNY - Eric NO3M
> If it were the 'ideal' thing, there'd be a box with a matrix of switches (A x
> B), gain blocks that could be put in/out of the circuit, BPFs that could be
> put in and out, 'muting' of any RX output that is connected to a transmitter
> that is transmitting, RX overload protection, and some general purpose inputs
> to select the 'configuration'. Probably a PIC to run it, with a nice GUI app
> to configure it.
>
>
> - Brian N9ADG
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:50:48 -0500
From: Guy Olinger K2AV <olinger@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP), parts and
winding for isolation transformer.
To: Bob Garrett <rgarrett5@comcast.net>, J A Ritter <w0uce@nc.rr.com>,
TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>, press@thewireman.com
Message-ID:
<CANckpc37rTGsHQ=Ly5UoU-Rfpqn-B3frgA+=1dE1DoXwAUZW9g@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
As requested.
Parts:
http://thewireman.com/wirep.html#631 #635 Double polyimide insulated
#14 AWG, 15 feet.
https://www.amidoncorp.com/categories/15 #12 AWG standard wall teflon
tubing, 15 feet.
https://www.amidoncorp.com/items/26 T300A-2 #2 material powdered iron
toroid.
You can also use Micrometals T300-2D, or a PAIR of Micrometals T300-2
stacked and taped together with fiberglass tape, which are the same as
Amidon T300A-2. You can often find the Micrometals cores on eBay.
Note: The core material, bifilar winding turn count, and core dimensions
are chosen to facilitate a "simple" 160 installation that has approximately
1/4 wave wire, a toroid wound balun-sized isolation transformer feeding the
coax, and a folded counterpoise attached, that delivers an impedance that
is close enough to 50 ohms resistive to reasonably use regular coax as a
feed. If you change the turn count, or the core material, or core
dimensions, this balance for the "simple solution" is defeated, and the
conditions which were tested in our two year research period no longer
apply. You might substitute configurations which we put up ourselves,
tested, and specifically rejected for cause. Like burned it up, was lossy,
wouldn't stay tuned, was worse than the original antenna, etc, etc
You can't use a stack of smaller diameter cores with the same total of A
sub L numbers because you can't get the required 20 bifilar turns on the
inside diameter of the smaller cores. 20 turns fills up the inside diameter
of the T300x-x form factor. If you don't use 20 turns, then you will get
less inductive reactance to cancel the FCP's capacitive reactance for the
simple installation and need more wire in the radiator to compensate.
Dropping only one turn on the core will add 12 or 13 feet to the "pruned"
length for resonance you would have had otherwise.
The #2 powdered iron core material has been very carefully chosen for 1.8
MHz QRP and QRO, drawing on advice and published work by W2FMI. Do not
substitute ferrite or other powdered iron materials. #2 powdered iron cores
are always painted red and easily identified. A core without paint or a
different color will not work.
Winding:
First, have a look on W0UCE's site for a good picture of one of these
correctly done . (Pix worth 1000 words and all that...)
http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html
Scroll down for the pictures. Note the appearance of the bifilar pair when
done right. Think of the bifilar pair as an exotic "zip cord". You will
be winding the PAIR as if you were winding with zip cord.
The professionally wound version from Balun Designs with enclosure and
hardware can be seen at:
http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/the-108/1-cln-1-High-Isolation-Balun/Detail
Cut wire and tubing in half and slip the wire inside the tubing to create a
pair of parallel 7.5 feet teflon-sleeved wires. Some find it easier to
handle the wires in winding if you tape them together.
Tightly wind twenty bifilar turns around the core. This will use all the
space in the inner diameter. Keep the bifilar pair turns separate and
uniformly spaced on the outside. ALL the wires should be laying flat on
the toroid, with NO twist flips where the wires do an "over-under".
IMPORTANT: When properly connected there is NO connection between the
antenna/FCP side and the coax side. CAUTION: If you get that WRONG when
you hook it up, you will STILL be able to hear on it, but the system won't
work right and you will loose valuable dB's.
!!! VERIFY THE SEPARATION !!! with an ohmmeter BEFORE you start pruning the
antenna wire or hurling electronic curses at dog, family, neighbors, or me.
To wind one of these for a 16+16 version FCP for 80 meters, and you are
doing the "simple" version with 67 feet or so radiator above the FCP,
evenly space *fifteen* bifilar turns around the toroid.
73, and I'm looking forward to a lot more 160 QSO's in the contests,
Guy K2AV
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Bob Garrett <rgarrett5@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello Guy,
>
> When the dust settles, will you post a list of parts and sources so we can
> duplicate this antenna and the unique matching network? 73, Bob K3UL
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:54:12 -0500
From: Guy Olinger K2AV <olinger@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Topband: Folded counterpoise, recent before and after stories
To: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Message-ID:
<CANckpc2xpvRLZUVXOVmUHpw_mgwXAWEmCjsRrBVEkBZcUF6-=A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
K5AF lives in San Antonio on a 75' x 100' corner lot. His general purpose
antenna is a tuned doublet that starts at the corner light post and goes
across his roof to a neighbor's tree in the opposite corner. His highest
tree is 40', all of them having been fresh-planted 5' saplings when he
moved in. Although he can easily tune the doublet in different
configurations to 160, his results on the doublet at 100 watts have been
considerably less than encouraging.
He has installed an FCP along the 75' back fence and has a mostly vertical
run up to 40 feet and then toward the front with a miscellaneous route to
get natural resonance with FCP+isolation transformer+wire. So basically he
is FCP and 40' vertical and rest low wire.
A couple nights ago, when the band was nicely open, 0430-0500Z he ran CQ's
and let RBN follow everything, doublet, then FCP/vert, then doublet.
Here's the results, best spot strength per RBN on antenna for the period.
W3LPL was the only one that was double faded on FCP. Doublet before and
doublet afterward were comparable. Paul is still working on the antenna to
reduce induction to stuff on his lot and is not done. At his power level,
on a "postage stamp" lot with minimal antenna possibilities, adding 7 dB is
huge.
K5AF RBN spots. San Antonio, TX
RBN Doublet FCP Vert Diff Loc
K3LR 16 dB 26 dB 10 PA
N0TA 19 dB 25 dB 6 CO
K8ND 17 dB 24 dB 7 OH
WZ7I 14 dB 23 dB 9 PA
KM3T 6 dB 21 dB 15 NH
WA7LNW 15 dB 21 dB 6 NV
NY3A 8 dB 17 dB 9 PA
NC7J 7 dB 12 dB 5 UT
N4ZR 5 dB 8 dB 3 WV
W3LPL 6 dB 6 dB 0 MD
AVERAGE DIFF: 7 dB
Unpaired readings:
WE4S 17 dB - - GA
KS4XQ 7 dB - - SC
W4AX - 26 dB - GA
W4KAZ did a more direct comparison. He took the antenna off a rig and just
let it sit in a corner of the shack, and noted the RX strength of 100 watts
on 20+ misc length on ground radials. Then he switched to the FCP, took up
all the radials and hit the key again. He had to reduce the power to 20
watts to get to the prior RX strength. Again 7 dB. This was verified
with RBN's vs local hams where prior diffs were known. In Keith's case,
the only available interpretation was that switching to the FCP and
isolation transformer removed 7 dB of induced ground loss, whatever the
method of induction, where ever it was.
Whether one wants to deal with an FCP or not, what should be more ominous
is that if you do not have a DENSE and UNIFORM radial field, you are most
likely dealing with quite more loss than you think. Models do NOT predict
this measured magnitude of change. They seem to severely underestimate
ground induction loss.
We will keep up the stories as they come in.
73, Guy
------------------------------
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End of Topband Digest, Vol 108, Issue 87
****************************************
_______________________________________________
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
|