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Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 148, Issue 18

To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'" <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 148, Issue 18
From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
Reply-to: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 21:55:54 +0200
List-post: <tentec@contesting.com">mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
Band filters don't help if you have two transmitters on the same band.
Although they will keep out the garbage from the other bands.

The Yaesus are pretty much the dirtiest transmitters on the market these
days.
Good luck!

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)


-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul
DeWitte
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 8:03 PM
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 148, Issue 18

Thanks for all of the replies and ideas. I am going to set up an antenna
here in my yard this spring/summer to try out some ideas before field day.
My radio will probably be my Omni VI+, and the SSB station will be some kind
of Yaesu of the clubs (do not know the model). We also use Dunestar band
filters when using more than one radio.

Thanks,
73 Paul K9OT

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:00 AM,  <tentec-request@contesting.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Field day antennas (Ralph Matheny K8RYU)
>    2. field day antennas (Paul DeWitte)
>    3. Re: field day antennas (Jim Allen)
>    4. Re: field day antennas (Barry N1EU)
>    5. Re: field day antennas (Jim Allen)
>    6. Re: Field day antennas (Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP)
>    7. Re: field day antennas (Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP)
>    8. Re: Field day antennas (Jim Brown)
>    9. Re: Field day antennas (John Bescher via TenTec)
>   10. Re: Field day antennas (Jim Brown)
>   11. Re: Field day antennas (John Bescher via TenTec)
>   12. Re: Field day antennas (Jim Brown)
>   13. Re: Field day antennas (lciotti@lrlc.us)
>   14. Re: Field day antennas (Jim Brown)
>   15. Re: Field day antennas (Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP)
>   16. Re: Field day antennas (Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:07:44 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ralph Matheny K8RYU <mathenyr@marietta.edu>
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID:
>         
> <1399845735.10431834.1429027664900.JavaMail.zimbra@marietta.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> In my experience the 80M antenna on the higher bands will be  a dud.  
> If you must, use a loop rather than an dipole, and feed the loop with 
> 300 (NOT 450) line via a true balanced link-coupled tuner, like the 
> Johnson Matchbox of 60's fame.  Both 80M antennas have just too many 
> nulls on the higher bands. T or L network tuners with "baluns"
> at the input or output have not impressed me in this service, but that 
> may be a personal prejudice.
>
> I think a short dipole for the higher bands is worth the trouble, say 
> about 20 feet on a side, again with 300 ohm feed line.
>
> I stay away from the 450 stuff because one can end up with some VERY 
> low or high Z at the tuner, and since the bands are harmonic related 
> if it's good on one it will be bad on another to a much greater 
> extent. If I could get 150 ohm open wire, I'd use it!
>
> One man's opinion.
>
>   de K8RYU
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:08:13 -0500
> From: Paul DeWitte <k9ot@yousq.net>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: [TenTec] field day antennas
> Message-ID:
>         
> <CAK=nnoGYbgvEcTHmxJfkjZF26A3PTgufYzFLjLf=FPj9A+XfpA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> In my first post I asked if the 80m antenna was 60 ft instead of 66 ft 
> would it tune easier on 40m.
>
> It should have read 60 ft on a side for an overall length of 120 ft, 
> instead of an overall length of 132ft.
>
> I do all of my antenna calculations 234/freq which is one side of a 
> dipole or the right formula for a vertical. Thus the 60 ft on a side.
>
> 73,Paul K9OT
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:52:20 -0500
> From: Jim Allen <jim.allen@longhornband.net>
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] field day antennas
> Message-ID: <A14C2C24-F7B3-4FC8-BFC7-0AC710207871@longhornband.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> The 130' dipole I have at the moment has been a decent performer on all
bands, better on 40 then 80, better on 20 than 40, etc.  It is only 32' high
at the center and slopes to ~15' at each end.  It is fed with about 100' of
450 ohm ladder line and matched with a Icom AH-4. Thence RG-8X to the shack.
It would be more effective if it were higher, of course.
>
> I'm in the process of upgrading to a delta loop for 40 and a rotating
dipole for higher, but I have been satisfied with the dipole.
>
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Paul DeWitte <k9ot@yousq.net> wrote:
>>
>> In my first post I asked if the 80m antenna was 60 ft instead of 66 
>> ft would it tune easier on 40m.
>>
>> It should have read 60 ft on a side for an overall length of 120 ft, 
>> instead of an overall length of 132ft.
>>
>> I do all of my antenna calculations 234/freq which is one side of a 
>> dipole or the right formula for a vertical. Thus the 60 ft on a side.
>>
>> 73,Paul K9OT
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:08:26 -0400
> From: Barry N1EU <barry.n1eu@gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] field day antennas
> Message-ID:
>         
> <CAFmfzDv2jpESPncmUo8cCRU=kTWof-74t6_Bp0_O884iQzGPNQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Not a big deal, but I'd consider bringing that doublet down to 88ft 
> and it would probably be easier to match and have a better broadside 
> pattern on 20M.
>
> Barry N1EU
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Jim Allen 
> <jim.allen@longhornband.net>
> wrote:
>
>> The 130' dipole I have at the moment has been a decent performer on 
>> all bands, better on 40 then 80, better on 20 than 40, etc.  It is only
32'
>> high at the center and slopes to ~15' at each end.  It is fed with 
>> about 100' of 450 ohm ladder line and matched with a Icom AH-4. 
>> Thence RG-8X to the shack.  It would be more effective if it were higher,
of course.
>>
>> I'm in the process of upgrading to a delta loop for 40 and a rotating 
>> dipole for higher, but I have been satisfied with the dipole.
>>
>> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Paul DeWitte <k9ot@yousq.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > In my first post I asked if the 80m antenna was 60 ft instead of 66 
>> > ft would it tune easier on 40m.
>> >
>> > It should have read 60 ft on a side for an overall length of 120 
>> > ft, instead of an overall length of 132ft.
>> >
>> > I do all of my antenna calculations 234/freq which is one side of a 
>> > dipole or the right formula for a vertical. Thus the 60 ft on a side.
>> >
>> > 73,Paul K9OT
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > TenTec mailing list
>> > TenTec@contesting.com
>> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:18:42 -0500
> From: Jim Allen <jim.allen@longhornband.net>
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] field day antennas
> Message-ID:
>         
> <CAO5v6iKVf3UbMQ=ULXET+hyao6cqCNDJP238=CxToReJEgQvQg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> As I get the other two up and running, the dipole is coming down 
> anyway, assuming the replacements described above are an improvement.
>
> The AH-4 has no issues with matching this at all, even on 6M.  There 
> are some lamentable nulls on some bands.  It's not like having stacked 
> monobanders at 120', that's for sure, but it has done nicely for what it
is.
>
> Why do you refer to this as a "doublet?"
>
> 73 de W6OGC  Jim Allen
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Barry N1EU <barry.n1eu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Not a big deal, but I'd consider bringing that doublet down to 88ft 
>> and it would probably be easier to match and have a better broadside 
>> pattern on 20M.
>>
>> Barry N1EU
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Jim Allen 
>> <jim.allen@longhornband.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The 130' dipole I have at the moment has been a decent performer on 
>> > all bands, better on 40 then 80, better on 20 than 40, etc.  It is only
32'
>> > high at the center and slopes to ~15' at each end.  It is fed with 
>> > about 100' of 450 ohm ladder line and matched with a Icom AH-4. 
>> > Thence RG-8X to the shack.  It would be more effective if it were
higher, of course.
>> >
>> > I'm in the process of upgrading to a delta loop for 40 and a 
>> > rotating dipole for higher, but I have been satisfied with the dipole.
>> >
>> > 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > > On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Paul DeWitte <k9ot@yousq.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > In my first post I asked if the 80m antenna was 60 ft instead of 
>> > > 66 ft would it tune easier on 40m.
>> > >
>> > > It should have read 60 ft on a side for an overall length of 120 
>> > > ft, instead of an overall length of 132ft.
>> > >
>> > > I do all of my antenna calculations 234/freq which is one side of 
>> > > a dipole or the right formula for a vertical. Thus the 60 ft on a
side.
>> > >
>> > > 73,Paul K9OT
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > TenTec mailing list
>> > > TenTec@contesting.com
>> > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > TenTec mailing list
>> > TenTec@contesting.com
>> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:33:40 +0200
> From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
> To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'" <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <00fd01d076e1$8864f020$992ed060$@de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ralph,
>
> I really liked your post.
> I don't quite follow your bit about being against 450 Ohm feedline but 
> the rest of your post was indeed impressive.  Maybe you know something 
> I don't know..
>
> Long low band antennas, used on the high bands, regardless of how good 
> the SWR looks, are a waste.  Less is better.  A short dipole with 
> maximum 6m (19
> ft.) per side is the longest the dipole should be.  Otherwise the two 
> major lobes will break up into several smaller lobes with multiple 
> peaks and nulls.  Not good.
>
> 20 ft. per side is borderline.  I'm not sure.  I would make it just 19 ft.
> per side to be on the safe side.
>
> I don't have a lot of experience with FD in USA.  I have won outright, 
> FD in Europe several times.
>
> Here in Europe, one of the best FD antennas one can have is a lazy 
> loop (for 80m).
> This is basically a horizontal loop, 84 meters (21 meters per side), 
> mounted about 30 to 40 ft. high.  It is fed with 300 or 450 Ohm 
> openwire and matched with a Johnson Viking matchbox (or Annecke).  It 
> may also be matched with other solutions.
>
> Ralph's statement about using an "L" or "T" matchbox is correct, 
> though using a "Symmetrical L" such as Palstars BT-1500 or a 
> "Symmetrical T" such as MFJ's MFJ-976 do work very good.  The 
> Link-Coupling of the JV Matchbox (or the Annecke, it's German 
> successor) gives you about 20dB more of common mode impedance which is 
> a great benefit.  It is often quieter than the other technologies.
>
> There are some ways of using lesser matchboxes but for now I support 
> what Ralph said.
>
> Categorically rejecting an OCFD is like shooting yourself in the foot.
> I would suggest you aren't up to date on the latest OCFD technology.
> Your information you have is probably sound, based on what we knew 15 
> years ago, but simply no longer true. (Not you Ralph, that bit was for 
> the original OM that started the thread).
>
> Ralph's post was super.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ralph 
> Matheny K8RYU
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:08 PM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>
>
>
> In my experience the 80M antenna on the higher bands will be  a dud.  
> If you must, use a loop rather than an dipole, and feed the loop with 
> 300 (NOT 450) line via a true balanced link-coupled tuner, like the 
> Johnson Matchbox of 60's fame.  Both 80M antennas have just too many nulls
on the higher bands.
> T or L network tuners with "baluns"
> at the input or output have not impressed me in this service, but that 
> may be a personal prejudice.
>
> I think a short dipole for the higher bands is worth the trouble, say 
> about
> 20 feet on a side, again with 300 ohm feed line.
>
> I stay away from the 450 stuff because one can end up with some VERY 
> low or high Z at the tuner, and since the bands are harmonic related 
> if it's good on one it will be bad on another to a much greater 
> extent. If I could get
> 150 ohm open wire, I'd use it!
>
> One man's opinion.
>
>   de K8RYU
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:44:32 +0200
> From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
> To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'" <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] field day antennas
> Message-ID: <00fe01d076e3$0c9e7770$25db6650$@de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Paul,
>
> The antenna you are looking at building is a complex antenna 
> consisting of two parts that contribute to defining how easy/difficult it
is to match:
> the dipole itself, and the length of the feedline.
>
> In general, a resonant 80m dipole (i.e. 132 to 138 ft.) will have an 
> incredibly high feedpoint impedance on all even harmonic bands; 
> somewhere in the range of 2500 Ohms.
>
> By reducing the size down to 120 ft., you will avoid these terribly 
> high impedances and find it a bit easier to match on all bands.  That 
> was a correct assumption.
>
> Barry's suggestion for an 88' doublet is also a good one.
> It requires less space than full size and the reduction of signal 
> strength on 80m is PEANUTS!
>
> I will also state that your absolute rejection of an OCFD is silly and 
> unfounded.
> Perhaps we should do an off-line chat on this, even on the telephone 
> at my cost.
> I have the time if you like.
> No problem if you're not interested.  Your loss, not mine.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul 
> DeWitte
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:08 PM
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: [TenTec] field day antennas
>
> In my first post I asked if the 80m antenna was 60 ft instead of 66 ft 
> would it tune easier on 40m.
>
> It should have read 60 ft on a side for an overall length of 120 ft, 
> instead of an overall length of 132ft.
>
> I do all of my antenna calculations 234/freq which is one side of a 
> dipole or the right formula for a vertical. Thus the 60 ft on a side.
>
> 73,Paul K9OT
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:53:45 -0700
> From: Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <552D6239.8090705@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 11:33 AM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
>> I don't have a lot of experience with FD in USA.
>
> FD antennas depend a lot on where you live. From Chicago, I used a 
> pair of 20/15/10 fan dipoles -- one broadside E/W, the other N/S. They 
> don't need to be very high -- 25-30 ft is good, and a bit lower still
works.
> Likewise, a pair of 80/40 fans as high as we could get them. We ran 
> three stations, so coax feed with resonant antennas and great radios 
> matter. The group I went with there has been placing #1 - #3 for years.
> They're now using all K3s.
>
>  From CA, we use a C3SS on a modular surplus military mast, usually 
> about 25 ft, aimed at the east coast. We still manage to work AZ, WA 
> and OR off the sides. For 80 and 40, one fan dipole as high as we can 
> get it, broadside to 70 degrees, if we're running one TX. If two TX, 
> one for each band. K3s the weapon of choice.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:36:49 -0400
> From: John Bescher via TenTec <tentec@contesting.com>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Cc: alan_wentzell@me.com, leepaulet@gmail.com, wd4rt@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <14cb96f1f33-65f5-20a33@webprd-m94.mail.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Adding another consideration for your Field Day antennas.....our club used
a dipole on 40 m SSB last year and Yagi's on 20, 15, and 10.   The 40 m
station clobbered the other stations.  One leg of the 40 m SSB dipole was
secured on the mast for the tribander Yagi which was about 25 feet above the
dipole.  This year we will separate the antennas significantly and insure
the dipole broadband pattern is not facing the Yagi.
>
>
> Another possibility to minimize interference is to use band pass filters.
This year we will also use more modern rigs with better front ends.  Coax
stubs is another option.
>
>
> And for your comment on the OCFD, it's not what I've found using one on 80
and 40 at my home station....no problem working DX, better flexibility and
SWR than my dipole.
>
>
> Good luck, let us know what you decide.
>
>
> 73....John Bescher, N4DXI
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul DeWitte <k9ot@yousq.net>
> To: tentec <tentec@contesting.com>
> Sent: Tue, Apr 14, 2015 1:08 am
> Subject: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>
>
> Not sure what is the correct forum to ask this on, but since at least 
> one of the radios will be a TT here goes.
>
> To make things simpler for us guys that set things up, we want to 
> minimize the number of antennas for field day. We will be 2A, one SSB 
> and one CW station.
>
> If we put up an 80m dipole fed with
> plastic window ladder line, how
> will it play on 20m and up?
> How about putting
> a 20m dipole at 90 degrees to the 80m ant with a common feed point 
> with the 80m ant?
>
> Would separate antennas on separate supports for 80/40, and 20/15/10m 
> be better? Thus 2 supports 2 antennas for each station.
>
> If I make
> the 80m ant 60ft instead of 66 will it tune easier on 40m?
>
> We will not use an
> OCFD so do not even suggest it.
>
> Thanks,73
> Paul
> K9OT
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing
> list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:30:17 -0700
> From: Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <552D78D9.5030206@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 12:36 PM, John Bescher via TenTec wrote:
>> And for your comment on the OCFD,
>
> Off-center fed antennas put lots of common mode RF on the feedline, 
> which is bad news for interaction between stations.
>
> Yes, stubs and bandpass filters can help reduce interference between 
> stations. So can a better rig -- cleaner TX and more bulletproof RX.
> That's why K3s are the current weapon of choice, with rigs like the 
> KX3 and TS590 a decent second place.
>
> Don't even think about bringing an el-cheapo do-everything wonder like 
> an IC706, FT100D, or newer equivalent Yaesus to FD -- you'll be 
> spewing trash into all the other stations!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:50:50 -0400
> From: John Bescher via TenTec <tentec@contesting.com>
> To: k9yc@arrl.net, tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <14cb9e9d008-144c-1d5dd@webprd-m99.mail.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> My club of 150 members, a lot of 2 m repeater hams, seem to have a lot of
older rigs, which, of course they want to use for Field Day.
>
>
> The opposite seems also to be true: the hams who have the newest rigs do
not want to risk damage lugging them to Field Day or having 'strangers'
operate them.
>
>
> Is there a way, besides on site testing, to tell whether a rig is suitable
for multiple station Field Day?
>
>
> I presume Orion II is ok but that falls into the category of not wanting
it get scratched up or knocked around for Field Day.  I was going to use a
Tentec Eagle for the GOTA station, easy to operate and fairly simple with a
half decent front end.  My backup is an old but reliable Icom 735...but
that's ancient, full of scratches, a hardened veteran of many Field Days and
probably not much of a front end.
>
>
> Maybe I can look up some of the specs on the transceivers that members are
offering for Field Day....should I look for anything special to eliminate
the major interference offenders?
>
>
> I guess there would be two issues: impure transmitting signals and
permissive receiving front ends.
>
>
> Sure wish I had a dozen K3's for Field Day, but that's not in the
offering.
>
>
> John Bescher, N4DXI
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: tentec <tentec@contesting.com>
> Sent: Tue, Apr 14, 2015 4:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 12:36 PM, John Bescher via TenTec wrote:
>> And for your
> comment on the OCFD,
>
> Off-center fed antennas put lots of common mode RF on the feedline, 
> which is bad news for interaction between stations.
>
> Yes,
> stubs and bandpass filters can help reduce interference between 
> stations. So can a better rig -- cleaner TX and more bulletproof RX.
> That's why K3s are the
> current weapon of choice, with rigs like the KX3 and TS590 a decent 
> second place.
>
> Don't even think about bringing an el-cheapo do-everything wonder like
>
> an IC706, FT100D, or newer equivalent Yaesus to FD -- you'll be 
> spewing
>
> trash into all the other stations!
>
> 73, Jim
> K9YC
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing
> list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:48:20 -0700
> From: Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <552D9934.6080205@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 2:50 PM, John Bescher via TenTec wrote:
>> Is there a way, besides on site testing, to tell whether a rig is
suitable for multiple station Field Day?
>
> Yes. Study my summary of ARRL Lab Tests of the TX cleanliness of a 
> dozen or so medium to high priced modern rigs.
>
> k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf
>
> Look for rigs with very low TX phase noise in the wide plots. I 
> haven't added the new Flex 6000-series rigs yet, but the 6500 and 6700 
> are good performers for phase noise. Also study Rob Sherwood's 
> comparison of receivers for handling strong signals.
>
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>
> Phase noise is that "rushing" sound you hear off frequency when a 
> strong signal is being keyed. Both TX and RX have it -- we hear it 
> because the other guy is TXing it, and also because our RX contributes 
> its own phase noise. :)  You want rigs that score well both ways.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:41:41 -0400
> From: "lciotti@lrlc.us" <lciotti@lrlc.us>
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <12276E93-D5C8-4683-9D0B-440914EAAF66@lrlc.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> All this field day antenna talk has me wondering...   In multi setups, I
know distance helps, but is it true that keeping the antenna parallel also
helps?    We are considering going from three stations this year to 4 so
that is going to complicate our antenna setup.   We typically have run two
band fan dipoles.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP <Rick@DJ0IP.de> wrote:
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> I really liked your post.
>> I don't quite follow your bit about being against 450 Ohm feedline 
>> but the rest of your post was indeed impressive.  Maybe you know 
>> something I don't know..
>>
>> Long low band antennas, used on the high bands, regardless of how 
>> good the SWR looks, are a waste.  Less is better.  A short dipole 
>> with maximum 6m (19
>> ft.) per side is the longest the dipole should be.  Otherwise the two 
>> major lobes will break up into several smaller lobes with multiple 
>> peaks and nulls.  Not good.
>>
>> 20 ft. per side is borderline.  I'm not sure.  I would make it just 19
ft.
>> per side to be on the safe side.
>>
>> I don't have a lot of experience with FD in USA.  I have won 
>> outright, FD in Europe several times.
>>
>> Here in Europe, one of the best FD antennas one can have is a lazy 
>> loop (for 80m).
>> This is basically a horizontal loop, 84 meters (21 meters per side), 
>> mounted about 30 to 40 ft. high.  It is fed with 300 or 450 Ohm 
>> openwire and matched with a Johnson Viking matchbox (or Annecke).  It 
>> may also be matched with other solutions.
>>
>> Ralph's statement about using an "L" or "T" matchbox is correct, 
>> though using a "Symmetrical L" such as Palstars BT-1500 or a 
>> "Symmetrical T" such as MFJ's MFJ-976 do work very good.  The 
>> Link-Coupling of the JV Matchbox (or the Annecke, it's German 
>> successor) gives you about 20dB more of common mode impedance which 
>> is a great benefit.  It is often quieter than the other technologies.
>>
>> There are some ways of using lesser matchboxes but for now I support 
>> what Ralph said.
>>
>> Categorically rejecting an OCFD is like shooting yourself in the foot.
>> I would suggest you aren't up to date on the latest OCFD technology.
>> Your information you have is probably sound, based on what we knew 15 
>> years ago, but simply no longer true. (Not you Ralph, that bit was 
>> for the original OM that started the thread).
>>
>> Ralph's post was super.
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Ralph Matheny K8RYU
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:08 PM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>>
>>
>>
>> In my experience the 80M antenna on the higher bands will be  a dud.  
>> If you must, use a loop rather than an dipole, and feed the loop with 
>> 300 (NOT 450) line via a true balanced link-coupled tuner, like the 
>> Johnson Matchbox of 60's fame.  Both 80M antennas have just too many
nulls on the higher bands.
>> T or L network tuners with "baluns"
>> at the input or output have not impressed me in this service, but 
>> that may be a personal prejudice.
>>
>> I think a short dipole for the higher bands is worth the trouble, say 
>> about
>> 20 feet on a side, again with 300 ohm feed line.
>>
>> I stay away from the 450 stuff because one can end up with some VERY 
>> low or high Z at the tuner, and since the bands are harmonic related 
>> if it's good on one it will be bad on another to a much greater 
>> extent. If I could get
>> 150 ohm open wire, I'd use it!
>>
>> One man's opinion.
>>
>>  de K8RYU
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:08:19 -0700
> From: Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <552DE433.3030004@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 6:41 PM, lciotti@lrlc.us wrote:
>> In multi setups, I know distance helps, but is it true that keeping the
antenna parallel also helps?
>
> In line is good, but still separate as much as possible. Distance is 
> the biggest help.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:45:52 +0200
> From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
> To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'" <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <003501d07750$33833430$9a899c90$@de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Jim, your comment is both accurate and inaccurate.
> In general it is accurate but does not have to be like that.
> Things have changed.
>
> The amount of common mode current on the feedline of an OCFD is 
> determined by many factors.  One of them is "how far off center" the 
> feedpoint is.  The closer to the center, the less CMC gets onto the 
> feedpoint.  OLD OCFD's have used 33% (from one end) as their feedpoint.
> Recently other splits have shown up, some of which are closer to the
center.
> These newer ones have inherently less common mode current.
>
> ALL commercial OCFD antennas of the past have used a single-core 4:1 
> Guanella balun (no exceptions that I know of).  These not only do a 
> lousy job of impeding common mode current, they actually generate 
> common mode current, as Steve Hunt (G3TXQ) has mathematically shown us 
> and then shown us the lab measurements to prove it.
>
> Bottom line there:  everything we know of to date was of poor design.
>
> Finally, I have spent several hundred hours in the field measuring 
> common mode current on all sorts of OCFD antennas, strung in various 
> configurations and using both types of baluns.  I've bent the coax all 
> over the place and re-measured, each time comparing the amount 
> measured common mode current to its impact on the SWR curve across each
ham band.
>
> I have over 500 sets of measured data.
> About half of these are posted on my web site.
>
> If you use a single core balun like all the US commercial vendors are 
> selling, then you are correct Jim.  You do get CMC onto the feedline.
>
> But if you use a well designed dual-core balun, then you are 
> incorrect.  You must do some really dumb things to it (like running 
> the coax just a few feet away from one leg) before you get significant 
> amounts of common mode current.
>
> BTW, I tried that on a dipole too and it also got common mode current 
> on the coax, albeit, not as much as the OCFD did.  However surely 
> nobody would ever erect an antenna like that!
>
> So in practice you are 100% correct if a person goes out and buys a 
> Buckmaster or Carolina Windom.  However it is possible to build one 
> yourself, or buy one from Scott W4PA, which does not have this problem.
>
> DISCLOSURE:  I have a commercial interest in the antenna products 
> Scott is selling.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim 
> Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:30 PM
> To: tentec@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>
> On Tue,4/14/2015 12:36 PM, John Bescher via TenTec wrote:
>> And for your comment on the OCFD,
>
> Off-center fed antennas put lots of common mode RF on the feedline, 
> which is bad news for interaction between stations.
>
> Yes, stubs and bandpass filters can help reduce interference between 
> stations. So can a better rig -- cleaner TX and more bulletproof RX.
> That's why K3s are the current weapon of choice, with rigs like the 
> KX3 and
> TS590 a decent second place.
>
> Don't even think about bringing an el-cheapo do-everything wonder like 
> an IC706, FT100D, or newer equivalent Yaesus to FD -- you'll be 
> spewing trash into all the other stations!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:41:34 +0200
> From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
> To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'" <tentec@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
> Message-ID: <004201d07760$5d9a8d80$18cfa880$@de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Jim has given some good advice.
>
> Another thing that helps when running 2 transmitters on the same band
(i.e.
> 40m or 20m) is to use different polarities of antennas;  one 
> horizontally polarized and one vertically polarized.
>
> Then separate as far as possible.
> It's better to have 1 or 2 dB of additional loss in the coax than to 
> have 10 or 20 dB of intermodulation or broadband noise on receive all the
time.
>
> Running them in parallel is the worst thing that you can do.
> For me, parallel means the wires are in parallel just as the elements 
> of a beam are in parallel.
>
> Instead, mount them end-to-end or rotated 90 degrees and of course 
> separate as far as possible.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> lciotti@lrlc.us
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 3:42 AM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>
> All this field day antenna talk has me wondering...   In multi setups, I
> know distance helps, but is it true that keeping the antenna parallel also
> helps?    We are considering going from three stations this year to 4 so
> that is going to complicate our antenna setup.   We typically have run two
> band fan dipoles.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 14, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP <Rick@DJ0IP.de> wrote:
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> I really liked your post.
>> I don't quite follow your bit about being against 450 Ohm feedline 
>> but the rest of your post was indeed impressive.  Maybe you know 
>> something I don't know..
>>
>> Long low band antennas, used on the high bands, regardless of how 
>> good the SWR looks, are a waste.  Less is better.  A short dipole 
>> with maximum 6m (19
>> ft.) per side is the longest the dipole should be.  Otherwise the two 
>> major lobes will break up into several smaller lobes with multiple 
>> peaks and nulls.  Not good.
>>
>> 20 ft. per side is borderline.  I'm not sure.  I would make it just 19
ft.
>> per side to be on the safe side.
>>
>> I don't have a lot of experience with FD in USA.  I have won 
>> outright, FD in Europe several times.
>>
>> Here in Europe, one of the best FD antennas one can have is a lazy 
>> loop (for 80m).
>> This is basically a horizontal loop, 84 meters (21 meters per side), 
>> mounted about 30 to 40 ft. high.  It is fed with 300 or 450 Ohm 
>> openwire and matched with a Johnson Viking matchbox (or Annecke).  It 
>> may also be matched with other solutions.
>>
>> Ralph's statement about using an "L" or "T" matchbox is correct, 
>> though using a "Symmetrical L" such as Palstars BT-1500 or a 
>> "Symmetrical T" such as MFJ's MFJ-976 do work very good.  The 
>> Link-Coupling of the JV Matchbox (or the Annecke, it's German
>> successor) gives you about 20dB more of common mode impedance which 
>> is a great benefit.  It is often quieter than the other technologies.
>>
>> There are some ways of using lesser matchboxes but for now I support 
>> what Ralph said.
>>
>> Categorically rejecting an OCFD is like shooting yourself in the foot.
>> I would suggest you aren't up to date on the latest OCFD technology.
>> Your information you have is probably sound, based on what we knew 15 
>> years ago, but simply no longer true. (Not you Ralph, that bit was 
>> for the original OM that started the thread).
>>
>> Ralph's post was super.
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Ralph Matheny K8RYU
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:08 PM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Field day antennas
>>
>>
>>
>> In my experience the 80M antenna on the higher bands will be  a dud.
>> If you must, use a loop rather than an dipole, and feed the loop with
>> 300 (NOT 450) line via a true balanced link-coupled tuner, like the 
>> Johnson Matchbox of 60's fame.  Both 80M antennas have just too many 
>> nulls
> on the higher bands.
>> T or L network tuners with "baluns"
>> at the input or output have not impressed me in this service, but 
>> that may be a personal prejudice.
>>
>> I think a short dipole for the higher bands is worth the trouble, say 
>> about
>> 20 feet on a side, again with 300 ohm feed line.
>>
>> I stay away from the 450 stuff because one can end up with some VERY 
>> low or high Z at the tuner, and since the bands are harmonic related 
>> if it's good on one it will be bad on another to a much greater 
>> extent. If I could get
>> 150 ohm open wire, I'd use it!
>>
>> One man's opinion.
>>
>>  de K8RYU
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TenTec Digest, Vol 148, Issue 18
> ***************************************
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