I have received the prototype Orion/Top Ten decoder interface from Dave,
N3RD, for testing. Dave furnished a premade cable with the 15 pin Orion plug
ready to plug into the Top Ten decoder box. I used my current custom
programming header config and it was instantly on the air and switching
properly.
Due to the recent several days of intense lightning and tornados, the shack
here is totally unplugged so I have not applied any RF in the presence of
the new decoder. I fully expect it to work as well as do all of the previous
Top Ten decoder boxes here.
What this does is to allow the new Orion owners who use the Top Ten decoder
to interface their existing units thereby utilizing any custom switching
without building any outboard boxes between the Orion and the sixway
switchboxes. This is great news for the multiple antenna users who rely on
the Top Ten and sixway's for their switching. After I completely test this
unit, Dave is planning on production in the near future.
This is just a heads up that this process is well underway and soon to be
available. Weather permitting I should have this finished up this week.
Updates will follow when this is complete.
73, Tommy WD4K
-----Original Message-----
From: tentec-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of
tentec-request@contesting.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:02 PM
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: TenTec Digest, Vol 5, Issue 9
Send TenTec mailing list submissions to
tentec@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
tentec-request@contesting.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
tentec-owner@contesting.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TenTec digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Hello Orion Users (Bill Tippett)
2. RE: Hello Orion Users (Adam Farson)
3. Re: Hello Orion Users (Jim Reid)
4. Hello Orion Users (Bill Tippett)
5. Re: TEN TEC for sale (Jim)
6. Re: Hello Orion Users (Gary Hoffman)
7. Re: Hello Orion Users (WILLIAM MANSEY; WA2PVK)
8. Re: Hello Orion Users (Pete Smith)
9. Re: Hello Orion Users (Bill Miner)
10. Re: Hello Orion Users (Carl Moreschi)
11. ORION AND SO2R (Chris Page)
12. Re: Hello Orion Users
13. FS: Ten Tec Filters (Larry Vandivier)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:22:21 -0400
From: Bill Tippett <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505191802.029b9ec0@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 1
N1JM wrote:
I would think it depends how you define audio.
Ten Tec manual:
>After digital signal processing in A7, the
recovered audio travels through the
Motherboard to the headphone jack
audio frequency (AF): The <../dir-004/_0527.htm>band of frequencies
(approximately 20 Hz to 20 kHz) that, when transmitted as acoustic waves,
can be heard by the normal human ear. (<../dir-001/_0063.htm#188>188)
http://glossary.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-003/_0421.htm
73, Bill W4ZV
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:30:24 -0700
From: Adam Farson <farson@shaw.ca>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <BLEKJMCJBOEAAIECDNNCCEAPGAAA.farson@shaw.ca>
In-Reply-To: <JEEOLNMIMLKLKBCGOLFEGEPACFAA.jmerrill1@adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 2
Bill,
Carl is correct.
The 14 kHz analogue IF signal enters the ADC, which converts it into a
digital bitstream. The DSP processes this bitstream according to algorithms
stored in firmware; one of these algorithms is IF filtering (bandwidth
determination), and another is demodulation (conversion of IF to baseband).
Demodulation may or may not be the final operation which the DSP performs on
the bitstream, depending on the task allocation in the DSP design. The
baseband, still in the digital domain, now enters the DAC, which converts it
to an analogue signal (audio).
The 14 kHz IF is not audio. If you pass the 14 kHz bitstream into the DAC,
and attempt to listen to the DAC output, you will not hear the recovered
audio from the received signal.
Cheers for now, 73,
Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ
-----Original Message-----
From: tentec-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of John L Merrill
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 16:06
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
I would think it depends how you define audio. In my thinking audio is what
comes out of the speaker. Anything before that is IF/RF.
John N1JM
-----Original Message-----
From: tentec-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bill Tippett
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:00 PM
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
N4PY wrote:
>The Orion DSP filters are NOT audio DSP filters.
I beg to differ Carl...from page 52 of the Orion manual:
From A3, cable 11 brings the IF signal to
the 9-MHz IF (A4), where the hardware
noise blanker operates in a wideband
environment. Cables 14A and 14B route
the wideband IF signal through the
Sweep Amplifier (A13) to A7 for use in
ORION's band scope feature. Three
standard and three optional crystal filters
(normally selected by the BW control)
define the tuned signal bandwidth ahead
of DSP filtering. This stage provides
enough amplification to maintain the
receiver sensitivity despite unavoidable
filter losses. The amplified and bandlimited
signal feeds the IF Converter
(A5) via cable 16.
A5 provides conversion to the 2nd IF,
amplification, filtering, and conversion to
the 3rd IF for processing in the A7 Logic
board. Cable 18 carries the 14 kHz third
IF to the DSP in A7.
After digital signal processing in A7, the
recovered audio travels through the
Motherboard to the headphone jack on
A8 and to the EXT SPKR and AUX I/O
jacks on A12. From A12 wire cable 36
runs to the internal speaker.
DSP is done at the 14 kHz 3rd IF which is clearly audio.
Believe me, you could not afford DSP done at RF frequencies.
73, Bill W4ZV
_______________________________________________
TenTec mailing list
TenTec@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
_______________________________________________
TenTec mailing list
TenTec@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:49:37 -1000
From: "Jim Reid" <jimr.reid@verizon.net>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <002901c31361$0f3fc9e0$923e4104@NewOne>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505155531.0271a050@pop.vnet.net>
<005401c31356$0fc3a0e0$c8b0bf3f@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 3
Carl wrote, in part:
> The Orion DSP filters are NOT audio DSP filters. They
> are IF DSP filters with the 100 db of AGC action in the
> DSP alone.
And Bill wrote:
> DSP is done at the 14 kHz 3rd IF which is clearly audio.
Well, let me give this a try; sure to stimulate debate, maybe?
Just because the final Orion IF center frequency is at
14 kHz, does not mean your could "hear" it!! That is,
it is not "baseband" frequency energy. It is still real RF energy
and has all the characteristics of electromagnetic RF
signals.
Why?
Because it has not been "detected" or otherwise converted
to "baseband". At baseband you have DC or near DC signal
components together with audio energy which can activate
voice coils or other transducers which will convert the
energy into "signals" perceived by human sensors: eyes,
ears, pressure, taste (?).
Typical definitions about this issue:
baseband. A transmission medium through which signals
are sent without frequency shifting. ... Ethernet is an example
of a baseband network. ...also,
baseband: 1. The original band of frequencies produced by a
transducer, such as a microphone, telegraph key, or other
signal-initiating device, prior to initial modulation. Note 1:
In transmission systems, the baseband signal is usually
used to modulate a carrier. Note 2: Demodulation re-creates
the baseband signal.
Note 3: Baseband describes the signal state prior to modulation,
and following demodulation. Note 4: Baseband frequencies
are usually characterized by being much lower in frequency than
the frequencies that result when the baseband signal is used
to modulate a carrier.
That 14 kHz IF energy is still very much RF energy, that is
it is not baseband energy as defined above, and would not
excite any sort of signal in the room air to which our ears
would respond.
You might get it to radiate as an EM wave, if you had
an efficient antenna at that VLF RF frequency!
Not sure if this helps at all, hi.
73, Jim KH7M
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:41:22 -0400
From: Bill Tippett <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505193712.029c3430@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 4
This discussion of semantics is missing the point. The
point of this discussion was at what frequency/IF stage the DSP
filter operates. The Orion/Main RX has 3 IF's at 9 MHz, 450 kHz
and 14 kHz. My point was that DSP's can be made to operate at
"audio frequencies" fairly easily, because ADC's, DSP's and DAC's
are economical at audio frequencies (sub-20 kHz) but NOT at RF
frequencies. I think we are picking at bones because the DSP
clearly operates on the 14 kHz IF, NOT at 450 kHz or 9 MHz.
It is impractical (i.e. very expensive) or impossible to get
commercial 24 bit (high resolution necessary for dynamic range)
ADC's and DAC's that would operate at 450 kHz...much less at 9 MHz
where the analog roofing filter does the heavy lifting. Just to
cite an example, we had an 8-bit 20 MHz ADC at HP in the early 90's
that sold for around $8000. To do DSP at 9 MHz would require an ADC
with 24 bit resolution at an 18 MHz sampling rate (twice the IF
frequency for no information loss)...and Lord only knows how many
GFLOPS in the DSP itself.
I don't reallly care if we call 14 kHz Audio, IF or RF...it
remains 14 kHz, and is done at the 3rd IF stage well past filtering
necessary for good interfering signal rejection is done by the first
IF roofing filter at 9 MHz. The roofing filter is primarily why we
see IMDDR3 of 101 dB...NOT DSP filtering at 14 kHz. For an example
of a purely analog system that even exceeds Orion's performance, check
out W8JI's "heavy modified" R4-C using a 600 Hz Sherwood roofing
filter below, and note the difference with the stock R4-C's (which
had wide roofing filters) at 48 and 68 dB IMDDR3 respectively:
http://www.w8ji.com/receiver_tests.htm
The medium mod has IMDDR3 of 92 dB and the heavy mod has 118 dB
and that's at 2 kHz spacing...not 5 kHz. Of course Orion might
also do better if the optional roofing filters are used.
73, Bill W4ZV
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:56:45 -0500
From: Jim <jlboockh@earthlink.net>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] TEN TEC for sale
Message-ID: <3EB7084D.7050305@earthlink.net>
References: <4b.2de75705.2be5c1cc@wmconnect.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 5
Bill-
Do you still have the 544? Is that a shipped price?
Jim N4AL (ex-AA5F)
Blky4u@wmconnect.com wrote:
> I have for sale a Ten Tec 544 with a Ten Tec supply for $250.00
> The 544 has the 245 cw filter and 249 noise blanker and manual. This radio
> really works well....all lettering good...has one very minor blimish on
top
> right of cover....
> I also have a Omni A series B for sale....sorry but no power supply with
> one....The Omni needs a little attention.....the ALC control is
inoperative
> in that it has no affect on the power output......It is 100 watts all
> time.....Other than that the radio works really well....all lettering is
good
> but there are a couple of paint chips on the face....Could be a good fixer
> upper.....Comes with the owners manual and power
cord.......$150.00.......No
> extra filters......Tnx for the space.....
> 73 de Bill.........KY4U
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:12:04 -0400
From: "Gary Hoffman" <ghoffman@spacetech.com>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <007901c3136c$813a6770$6301a8c0@AA2IZ>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505185346.029c2b20@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Gary Hoffman <ghoffman@spacetech.com>, tentec@contesting.com
Message: 6
Well, I think you guys are both right.
The DSP operates ahead of the audio stage, and thus can be called IF.
Of course, the frequency of 14 khz is certainly in the audio range.
And no - we could never afford DSP done at high RF frequencies.
73 de Gary, AA2IZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tippett" <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 6:59 PM
Subject: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
> N4PY wrote:
> >The Orion DSP filters are NOT audio DSP filters.
>
> I beg to differ Carl...from page 52 of the Orion manual:
>
> From A3, cable 11 brings the IF signal to
> the 9-MHz IF (A4), where the hardware
> noise blanker operates in a wideband
> environment. Cables 14A and 14B route
> the wideband IF signal through the
> Sweep Amplifier (A13) to A7 for use in
> ORION's band scope feature. Three
> standard and three optional crystal filters
> (normally selected by the BW control)
> define the tuned signal bandwidth ahead
> of DSP filtering. This stage provides
> enough amplification to maintain the
> receiver sensitivity despite unavoidable
> filter losses. The amplified and bandlimited
> signal feeds the IF Converter
> (A5) via cable 16.
>
> A5 provides conversion to the 2nd IF,
> amplification, filtering, and conversion to
> the 3rd IF for processing in the A7 Logic
> board. Cable 18 carries the 14 kHz third
> IF to the DSP in A7.
> After digital signal processing in A7, the
> recovered audio travels through the
> Motherboard to the headphone jack on
> A8 and to the EXT SPKR and AUX I/O
> jacks on A12. From A12 wire cable 36
> runs to the internal speaker.
>
> DSP is done at the 14 kHz 3rd IF which is clearly audio.
> Believe me, you could not afford DSP done at RF frequencies.
>
> 73, Bill W4ZV
>
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:20:13 -0400
From: "WILLIAM MANSEY; WA2PVK" <wa2pvk@verizon.net>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <000301c3136d$a504bce0$80d92e04@williamdesktop>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505155531.0271a050@pop.vnet.net>
<005401c31356$0fc3a0e0$c8b0bf3f@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 7
Hello Carl and everyone,
This is an interesting subject and one that I have had heated
discussions over. (IE: Arguments!)
When is RF "RF" and not "AF"? If one were to build a transmitter, of
"conventional" design - BUT on a scale that would operate at 10KHz. and
connected it to "The Mother of all Antennas" it would radiate a signal just
like any other transmitter is supposed to be doing. NOW for the "fun"
part - - - If you were in the near vicinity of this monstrosity would you
hear anything? I say NO because it is RF. (if you were real close to the
transmitter you might hear a signal but only if the RF caused mechanical
vibrations in the coils and/or other components.
Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. I am used to that and can
handle being corrected. I remember that because I was wrong ONCE before!
:-)
I am not trying to stir up any trouble. I just am seeking clarification
of this interesting subject. I just think that RF applies to
electromagnetic energy travelling at the speed of light.
The bottom line is, to me, that the DSP (and the rest of the attached
Orion) works fantastically well! 73, Bill
wa2pvk@verizon.net
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 4/18/2003
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:34:01 -0400
From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: Gary Hoffman <ghoffman@spacetech.com>, tentec@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030505213251.04b4cd20@mail.adelphia.net>
In-Reply-To: <007901c3136c$813a6770$6301a8c0@AA2IZ>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505185346.029c2b20@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 8
At 09:12 PM 5/5/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, I think you guys are both right.
>
>The DSP operates ahead of the audio stage, and thus can be called IF.
>
>Of course, the frequency of 14 khz is certainly in the audio range.
>
>And no - we could never afford DSP done at high RF frequencies.
But isn't the real point that heretofore, DSP was done after the AGC loop,
so that regardless of how sharp the DSP passband, AGC pumping was occurring
before the signal ever got there. That is certainly the case with my Mark
5...
73, Pete N4ZR
The World HF Contest Station Database was updated 11 April 03.
Are you current? www.pvrc.org/wcsd/wcsdsearch.htm
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 18:40:58 -0700
From: Bill Miner <wg6h@postoffice.pacbell.net>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <3EB712AA.5C4A0B2D@postoffice.pacbell.net>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505102232.02720e80@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: wg6h@pacbell.net, tentec@contesting.com
Message: 9
Bill and List,
FYI
Before you take advantage of the filter sale from Inrad for use in an
ORION I would check on the insertion loss of the Inrad filters to make
sure they are similar to the Ten Tec filters. The filter positions in
the ORION are equalized for 'Ten Tec' filters and there is no adjustment
available.
Also, if you put in a 400 hz filter into the 500 hz filter position you
will loose the ability to adjust BW between 400 and 500 hz as the 500 hz
position is enabled when the DSP BW is 500 hz.
73,
Bill - K6WLM
Bill Tippett wrote:
>
> VE1BN:
> >Can anyone tell me what extra Ten-Tec filters are required
> for the stock Orion?
>
> Don, none are required, but the Ten-Tec 217, 218 and 219
> are options to the Orion:
>
> http://www.tentec.com/HFxcvrStore.htm
>
> Unless you are doing serious contesting, I tend to agree
> with N4PY that they may not be necessary. However, I'll
> probably order Inrad's 400 Hz filter, but not the 1800 or
> 250 Hz filters. Remember that Orion's standard roofing
> filters are 2400 Hz for SSB and 1000 Hz for CW compared to
> the usual 10-20 kHz filters in traditional designs (e.g.
> FT-1000MP uses a 12 kHz roofing filter at 70.4 MHZ). So
> the standard Orion will be head and shoulders above other
> radios, EVEN WITH NO OPTIONAL FILTERS. Here are close-in
> 5 kHz IMDDR3 comparisons (remember that these were made
> with Orion's STANDARD 1000 Hz roofing filter):
>
> Close In IMD Dynamic Range at 5 kHz Signal Spacing
> (ARRL Lab Results, Preamp off on 20M):
>
> Rig IMDDR3
>
> Ten-Tec Orion 101*
> Elecraft K2 88
> Ten-Tec Omni 6+ 86
> Yaesu FT-1000MP 83
> ICOM IC-756 Pro 80
> Yaesu FT-1000MP Mark V 78
> ICOM IC-775DSP 77
> ICOM IC-756 Pro II 76
> ICOM IC-706 MkII G 74
> Yaesu FT-1000MP Field 73
> Kenwood TS-570D 72
> Kenwood TS-2000 69
> ICOM IC-756 67
>
> *Ten-Tec spec not yet verified by ARRL.
>
> The reason I want a 400 Hz roofing filter is mainly
> for contests, when it is not unusual for an S9+40dB
> signal to be only 500 Hz away while I'm trying to hear
> an S3 guy answering me. The optional 400 Hz filter
> should make the above IMDDR3 measurements look similar
> for interfering signal spacings of only 500 Hz!
>
> http://www.qth.com/inrad/graphs/759.gif
>
> Orion should be able to hear signals 25 dB weaker than
> a radio with an IMDDR3 spec of 76 dB when a very strong
> interfering signal is within 5 kHz (and that difference
> will probably increase even more at closer signal
> spacings)...that's a VERY BIG DEAL for contests or in
> an unruly DX pileup on 160!
>
> 73, Bill W4ZV
>
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 01:56:42 -0000
From: "Carl Moreschi" <n4py@earthlink.net>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <000c01c31372$be681ec0$9bb0bf3f@oemcomputer>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505193712.029c3430@pop.vnet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 10
Bill,
I understand your point. The only thing I am trying to say is when you say
audio DSP it makes it sound like the DSP can do no more than a good external
audio DSP unit like the timewave units. These DSP add devices are not in
the AGC loop and cannot do anything like the Orion's DSP.
The DSP in the Orion has a 100 db range all by itself. If the entire signal
path ahead of the DSP can handle a 100 db dynamic range, then the DSP alone
could provide a 100 db dynamic range. The roofing filters just add to this
by removing more unwanted signals on this path. The point is the DSP in the
Orion has more range and sharper filtering than anything we have seen before
in an amateur rig. I don't believe any manufacturer has achieved a 1.05 to
1 filter shape factor before.
By the way, UPS says my Orion should arrive tomorrow!
Carl Moreschi N4PY
Franklinton, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tippett" <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
> This discussion of semantics is missing the point. The
> point of this discussion was at what frequency/IF stage the DSP
> filter operates. The Orion/Main RX has 3 IF's at 9 MHz, 450 kHz
> and 14 kHz. My point was that DSP's can be made to operate at
> "audio frequencies" fairly easily, because ADC's, DSP's and DAC's
> are economical at audio frequencies (sub-20 kHz) but NOT at RF
> frequencies. I think we are picking at bones because the DSP
> clearly operates on the 14 kHz IF, NOT at 450 kHz or 9 MHz.
> It is impractical (i.e. very expensive) or impossible to get
> commercial 24 bit (high resolution necessary for dynamic range)
> ADC's and DAC's that would operate at 450 kHz...much less at 9 MHz
> where the analog roofing filter does the heavy lifting. Just to
> cite an example, we had an 8-bit 20 MHz ADC at HP in the early 90's
> that sold for around $8000. To do DSP at 9 MHz would require an ADC
> with 24 bit resolution at an 18 MHz sampling rate (twice the IF
> frequency for no information loss)...and Lord only knows how many
> GFLOPS in the DSP itself.
>
> I don't reallly care if we call 14 kHz Audio, IF or RF...it
> remains 14 kHz, and is done at the 3rd IF stage well past filtering
> necessary for good interfering signal rejection is done by the first
> IF roofing filter at 9 MHz. The roofing filter is primarily why we
> see IMDDR3 of 101 dB...NOT DSP filtering at 14 kHz. For an example
> of a purely analog system that even exceeds Orion's performance, check
> out W8JI's "heavy modified" R4-C using a 600 Hz Sherwood roofing
> filter below, and note the difference with the stock R4-C's (which
> had wide roofing filters) at 48 and 68 dB IMDDR3 respectively:
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/receiver_tests.htm
>
> The medium mod has IMDDR3 of 92 dB and the heavy mod has 118 dB
> and that's at 2 kHz spacing...not 5 kHz. Of course Orion might
> also do better if the optional roofing filters are used.
>
> 73, Bill W4ZV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:47:07 -0000
From: "Chris Page" <g4bue@adur-press.co.uk>
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: [TenTec] ORION AND SO2R
Message-ID: <3EB7141B.4547.223208@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Precedence: list
Reply-To: g4bue@adur-press.co.uk, tentec@contesting.com
Message: 11
Hello Orion Owners
Can you have true SO2R capability with the Orion?
Ten-Tec's Web page for the Orion states:
"Instant Two Radio Mode" allows ORION to instantly QSY between two
different bands. Two linear amplifiers, two sets of accessory devices via
dual band data outputs and two antennas can optionally be connected to
ORION to allow instantaneous QSY (useful for seeking out and working
stations on one band during a contest while CQing on a different band, for
example).
I have downloaded and read the Orion manual PDF file and the only
reference to this that I can find is under 3.4.6.2. described as Dual-
Watch Contest example, but it does not make it very clear whether you can
have true SO2R capabilty.
Can one of the Orion owners clarfiy this for me please.
Thanks and 73 de Chris
-- Christopher J Page, W4/G4BUE
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:52:12 -0500
From: nq5t@attbi.com
To: tentec@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Hello Orion Users
Message-ID: <3EB6CEFC.5327.34CC02AD@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <007901c3136c$813a6770$6301a8c0@AA2IZ>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 12
The relationship only exists because of the physical nature of how
those two sensors on the sides of our head work. The distinction
between audio and not-audio is irrelevant in this situation. As
someone else pointed out, the difference has to do with definition of
baseband frequency for the DSP IF. There's no relationship to what
happens in the 14Khz IF system (pre-detection) to "audio" DSP.
A dog can nearly hear a 50Khz IF signal, so following the "it's audio"
logic, I guess we could say a drake 2-B has a linear "doggie audio"
IF? :-)
Grant/NQ5T
> Well, I think you guys are both right.
>
> The DSP operates ahead of the audio stage, and thus can be called IF.
>
> Of course, the frequency of 14 khz is certainly in the audio range.
------------------------------
To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:10:15 -0500
From: "Larry Vandivier" <wb9ydl@iland.net>
To: <TenTec@contesting.com>
Subject: [TenTec] FS: Ten Tec Filters
Message-ID: <004501c31374$a28eafa0$be09b844@w9xe>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tentec@contesting.com
Message: 13
I have For Sale cw filters from a Paragon. These are the 6.3 mhz . Please
email directly if interested
Model 285 500hz filter $65.00 shipped
Model 282 250hz filter $65.00 shipped
Larry Vandivier
W9XE / FS Project 717
wb9ydl@iland.net
www.iland.net/~wb9ydl/
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
TenTec mailing list
TenTec@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
End of TenTec Digest, Vol 5, Issue 9
************************************
|
