WinMor's busy frequency detector may not be sensitive to JT65, but it does
detect SSB, RTTY, PSK variants, and several other digital
modes.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ
-----Original Message-----
From: RTTY [mailto:rtty-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:00 PM
To: rtty@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
On 11/24/2013 11:24 AM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
> WinMor also includes an effective busy-frequency detector that
> reducesthe likelihood of its servers responding on a frequency that
> is already in use.
Winmor's busy frequency circuit is not effective for non-Winmor
signals. An unattended Winmor system will respond to a caller
if there are other signals present that the caller is ignoring
or are not audible to the caller. I've heard Winmor signals call
over top of JT65 activity at the low end of the 14076-14078 JT65
"window" on more than one occasion.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
>
> 73,
>
> Dave, AA6YQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RTTY [mailto:rtty-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Hill AA5AU
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 11:17 AM
> To: rtty@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>
> Dave, the link provided mentions a mode I have never heard of before. It's
> called Winmor and it has a rate of either 47 or 94 baud
> and has a bandwidth of either 450 or 1600 Hz depending on which mode it used.
> It is an AFSK mode which uses a sound card.
>
> http://www.winlink.org/WINMOR
>
> Don AA5AU
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RTTY [mailto:rtty-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dave AA6YQ
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:53 AM
> To: 'Joe Subich, W4TV'
> Cc: rtty@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>
> In messaging systems like WinLink, users activate an unattended server. For
> this to work, users must know on what frequencies to
> call.
>
> See, for example,
>
> <http://www.qsl.net/ve3lki/RMS/index.html>
>
> Being Canadian, this station is not subject to 97.221; some of the
> frequencies it advertises are outside the "automatic control"
> segments defined in 97.221.
>
> 73,
>
> Dave, AA6YQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:lists@subich.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:28 AM
> To: Dave AA6YQ
> Cc: rtty@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>
>
>
>
> On 11/23/2013 8:58 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
>> Your message is the first I've heard of automatically controlled stations
>> ignoring the 500 hz bandwidth limitation within the
>> sub-bands specified by 97.221.
>
> It's not just in the sub-bands defined by 97.221 ... it's where ever
> the auto-responding systems are called.
>
> > Is this anecdotal, or is there hard evidence of this behavior?
>
> Well, it's a little difficult to have callsigns and times since the
> PACTOR protocol is proprietary, SCS refuses to publish it, and it
> is impossible to decode without spending $2000 for one of SCS's
> hardware modems. However, he sudden appearance of the "burping,"
> wide, noise like signal on top of narrow bandwidth QSOs is a good
> indication of this behavior.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Dave, AA6YQ
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:lists@subich.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:50 PM
>> To: Dave AA6YQ
>> Cc: rtty@contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>>
>>
>> > How is it different than an automatically controlled station as
>> > described in 97.221?
>>
>> A "scanning auto-responder" is a station described by 97.221 (c)(1).
>>
>> However, operators of such systems claim they are not automatically
>> controlled (they are "controlled" by the interrogating station) and
>> thus not subject to 97.221 - including the bandwidth limitation.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 11/23/2013 8:21 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
>>> What's a "scanning auto-responder"? How is it different than an
>>> automatically controlled station as described in 97.221?
>>>
>>> <http://www.w5yi.org/page.php?id=136>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Dave, AA6YQ
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RTTY [mailto:rtty-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich,
>>> W4TV
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:07 PM
>>> To: rtty@contesting.com
>>> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>>>
>>>
>>> > Has anyone reached a different conclusion?
>>>
>>> The scanning "auto-responders" are not considered to be automatically
>>> controlled. That one reason they can pop-up anywhere "RTTY, data"
>>> emissions are authorized. The 500 Hz bandwidth does not apply to
>>> them - and is routinely ignores by "automatically controlled" stations
>>> in the "automatic control" sub-bands.
>>>
>>> ARRL's assertion that "there is no proposal herein to change" rings
>>> hollow because most of the PACTOR systems are not technically operated
>>> under the "automatic control" rules.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2013 7:45 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
>>>> Section II.8 of
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.arrl.org/files/media/News/Petition%20for%20Rule%20Making%20AS-FILED%2011%2015%202013.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> restates the 500 hertz bandwidth limit on automatically controlled
>>>> stations operating in the HF subbands specified by 97.221.
>>>> Footnote 11 says "there is no proposal herein to change the nominal
>>>> bandwidth limitation for automatically controlled stations
>>>> transmitting data emissions".
>>>>
>>>> Thus the ARRL's proposal would if adopted not result in any expansion in
>>>> either the bandwidth or HF spectrum available to
>>>> automatically controlled stations.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone reached a different conclusion?
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> Dave, AA6YQ
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: RTTY [mailto:rtty-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Kai
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 6:21 PM
>>>> To: rtty@contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>> The appropriate course of action now would be to file comments about the
>>>> ARRL
>>>> proposal (and just the proposal).
>>>> One approach may be, a step by step effort to defeat any BW greater than
>>>> 2,200 Hz::
>>>> (1) To keep the status quo, the BW should be 2,200 Hz. That excludes no
>>>> one,
>>>> adds no one, and keeps all current modes as before; allows for future
>>>> innovation
>>>> and experimentation.
>>>> (2) That means 2800 is clearly outside the mainstream -- we must
>>>> demonstrate now
>>>> that 2800 would injure current users without any real benefits.
>>>> [this is reasonable in view of the ARRL proposal, and stands a chance of
>>>> prevailing]
>>>>
>>>> if you want to go further, and alternative argument is:
>>>>
>>>> (3) Current RTTY limit (up to 300 B, and 1 kHz T sep) requires just 1,500
>>>> Hz.
>>>> That satisfies everything including PACTOR-III-SL1.
>>>> Perhaps that's a rock bottom figure because it results in small reductions
>>>> in
>>>> current amateur privileges, maybe not so bad except for the
>>>> PACTOR-III modes SL2-6. Then follow up with (2) again, that 2800 Hz will
>>>> cause
>>>> harm.
>>>> [this one we think is reasonable, but it injures other current users, so
>>>> less
>>>> chance of prevailing]
>>>>
>>>> So I can see a clear case for 2,200 Hz, and a good case for 1,500 Hz. But
>>>> I can
>>>> not see a viable case for much below 1,500 Hz.
>>>> The another important thrust would be to demonstrate that anything greater
>>>> than
>>>> 2200 Hz belongs up there with image emissions and in the 60 m band channels
>>>> (where 2800 is already legal) because it is incompatible with amateur
>>>> usage and
>>>> practice in the CW/digi frequencies.
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>> Kai, KE4PT
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2013 5:09 PM, John Grimm wrote:
>>>>> I am in the process of drafting my comments. Like Jim, I would
>>>>> appreciate even a bullet list of topics/issues which are
deemed
>>>> important to include in those comments. This would be very helpful to me
>>>> as I've never filed comments before.
>>>>>
>>>>> John / K0YQ
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 13:36:05 -0600
>>>>> From: "Jim N7US"<jim@n7us.net>
>>>>> To:<rtty@contesting.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RTTY] ARRL attack on current RTTY users
>>>>> Message-ID:<025601cee883$4168a560$c439f020$@net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it be productive if a committee of "The Knowledgeable" got together
>>>>> to
>>>>> draft an effective, succinct email to the ARRL directors that includes the
>>>>> key problems with the proposal? Each of us could either copy and paste it
>>>>> in an email to our respective directors or modify/personalize it before
>>>>> doing so. It should include the impact on all modes and activities, not
>>>>> only RTTY.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand it's already gone to the FCC, so responding to that is a
>>>>> separate undertaking, and Don just created a web page on how to do that.
>>>>> I
>>>>> would think that the key points in the ARRL director email would probably
>>>>> be
>>>>> the same ones to include in an FCC filing.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Jim N7US
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RTTY mailing list
>>>>> RTTY@contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rtty
>>>>>
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