Re: [CQ-Contest] KU1CW location

[Zack Widup <w9sz.zack@gmail.com>]

Wow, this conversation sure took a turn from "Where is Alex living now?"
:-)

73, Zack W9SZ


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Peter Bowyer <peter@bowyer.org> wrote:
> Bob
>
> The scope of CEPT Recommendation T/R 61-01, to which the US is a
> signatory and under which 97.101 grants reciprocal privileges, is for
> short-term visitors to the country concerned. By omission, remote
> operation from outside the country is excluded.
>
> You can find the full text of the Recommendation here
> http://www.ecodocdb.dk/Docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR6101.pdf. You'll note
> that the US is listed in Appendix 4 as a non-CEPT member who has
> applied and been accepted under the Recommendation, meaning its
> privileges apply multilaterally between the US and the other
> signatories.
>
> 97.101 further restricts the licensee to the operating conditions of
> their home license, which is more restrictive than 61-01. Hence no >
> 400W for G licensees, etc.
>
> I agree with others that a formal ruling from contest sponsors or the
> FCC on remote operation would be welcome, but it's clear that remote
> operation is not within the scope of 61-01.
>
> Peter
>
> On 7 June 2017 at 17:18,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
>> And, nowhere in that agreement does it support anything you're claiming.
>>
>> Please quote any legal document that explicitly says otherwise.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bob W5OV
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, June 7, 2017 11:23 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> You failed to quote 97.107(b)(1). Which says :-
>>>
>>>
>>> "The terms of the agreement between the alien's government and the
>>> United States;"
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a multilateral operating agreement between the US and the
>>> CEPT countries.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 June 2017 at 15:29,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you quote an actual rule that says what you claim?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In Part 97.107, nothing like what you and others are alleging is
>>>> justified, nor even mentioned.  In the USA, the FCC rules take
>>>> precedence in all cases, and there is nothing in the FCC rules that
>>>> supports your claim of CEPT rules taking precedence over any operations
>>>> within the USA under any circumstances.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 97.107 (b)(2)
>>>> "The operating terms and conditions of the amateur service license
>>>> granted by the alien's government"
>>>>
>>>> This does not say anything about operating privileges. They are covered
>>>> in the next part.  The "terms and conditions *of the amateur service
>>>> license*" refer explicitly to only the *license* and its validity -
>>>> issue dates, expirations, etc.
>>>>
>>>> In contrast, operating privileges are discussed *explicitly* in the
>>>> next part:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the case of the UK:  97.107(b)(3) applies:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The applicable rules of this part, but not to exceed the control
>>>> operator privileges of an FCC-granted Amateur Extra Class operator
>>>> license".
>>>>
>>>> This is germane regarding operating privileges and what it says is:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The applicable rules of this part" which means all USA allocations,
>>>> modes, restrictions and all other rules and regulations that apply in
>>>> the USA *for Extra Class operators*.  In other words, All foreigners
>>>> eligible for reciprocal operating are granted full USA Extra Class
>>>> privileges - but no more.
>>>>
>>>> As one example of "no more", reciprocal licensees cannot operate SSB in
>>>>  the USA CW / Digital bands, even though their licenses back home may
>>>> permit it.
>>>>
>>>> In all cases, USA FCC Law takes precedence over all other countries'
>>>> rules.
>>>>
>>>> That is what it *actually* says.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're adding things to it that it does not say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob W5OV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, June 7, 2017 3:08 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the conditions under which the reciprocal privileges are
>>>>> granted (in this case ) are governed by CEPT and adopted by FCC. In
>>>>> order to benefit from the CEPT arrangements, FCC has to adopt its
>>>>> rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'no remote operation' principle comes from the CEPT rules.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter G4MJS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6 Jun 2017 10:46 p.m., <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From what I read at the link you provided, it is precisely as I
>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as if
>>>>>> they were physically within the USA".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see nothing that changes that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More specifically, anyone operating a remote station in the USA
>>>>>> must obey the USA FCC Law as if they were here in the USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob W5OV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, June 5, 2017 12:02 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry Bob you're wrong there. FCC has adopted the CEPT T/R 61-01
>>>>>>> regulation to make reciprocal licensing easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.arrl.org/foreign-licenses-operating-in-u-s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter G4MJS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5 June 2017 at 13:07,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> N2RJ said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> " Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01
>>>>>>>> is not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to
>>>>>>>> operate an internet remote base in the US while being physically
>>>>>>>> present overseas...."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EU rules do not apply to amateur radio transmissions made from
>>>>>>>> within the USA under any circunstances.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where the operator is located is completely irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What happens on the air from a USA station is governed by US
>>>>>>>> FCC
>>>>>>>> Law -
>>>>>>>> nothing else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as
>>>>>>>> if they were physically within the USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob W5OV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ria
>>>>>>>> Jairam
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 5:53 PM
>>>>>>>> To: W4AAW@aol.com
>>>>>>>> Cc: CQ-Contest Reflector <cq-contest@contesting.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] KU1CW location
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
>>>>>>>>> will agree with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying
>>>>>>>>> to fool anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair
>>>>>>>>> advantage. We're
>>>>>>>>> just being
>>>>>>>> competitive and striving to do so strictly within the rules.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is really nothing wrong with trying to gain an advantage
>>>>>>>> during a contest. That's what contesting is. As long as it is
>>>>>>>> within the rules. Operating from elsewhere to do better in
>>>>>>>> contests has been a staple of contesting for pretty much as long
>>>>>>>> as it has existed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
>>>>>>>>> Totally
>>>>>>>>> Remote
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> M/M station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's positions from
>>>>>>>>> all over NA, from Panama,  Europe and Asia, provided they meet
>>>>>>>>> legal/licensing
>>>>>>>> requirements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01 is
>>>>>>>> not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to operate
>>>>>>>> an internet remote base in the US while being physically present
>>>>>>>>  overseas. Even if they were allowed, their home license
>>>>>>>> restrictions and power limits (while not exceeding US Extra)
>>>>>>>> apply. In the UK it is 400 watts for full licenses and in
>>>>>>>> Germany it is 750W for class A licenses. Other
>>>>>>>> European countries
>>>>>>>> may be different. The best thing for them to do to be compliant
>>>>>>>> with the laws of the US is to get a US license. There are VE
>>>>>>>> sessions in many countries overseas and one can get a license by
>>>>>>>> passing the (now very
>>>>>>>> easy) exams. No code required, even.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
>>>>>>>>> very clearly show the  locations of each operator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An awards chaser who isn't competing in the contest is unlikely
>>>>>>>> to know about nor care about 3830. The best thing to do would be
>>>>>>>> to put the location of the stations in the QRZ profile, which is
>>>>>>>> the first place they look.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>> Ria, N2RJ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:30 PM, W4AAW@aol.com via CQ-Contest
>>>>>>>> <cq-contest@contesting.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is the correct information on KU1CW in the CQWPX CW
>>>>>>>>> contest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Alex has just moved to Washington State.  He has not yet
>>>>>>>>> modified his
>>>>>>>> license to reflect this recent development.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
>>>>>>>>> Totally
>>>>>>>>> Remote
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> M/M station.  We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's
>>>>>>>> positions from all over NA, from Panama, Europe and Asia,
>>>>>>>> provided they meet legal/licensing requirements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Since a W4 call sign is common in WPX tests, I suggested
>>>>>>>>> to Alex
>>>>>>>>> we use
>>>>>>>> KU1CW for the contest.  Alex agreed. So, the entry (as shown on
>>>>>>>>  3830)
>>>>>>>> was KU1CW@ W4AAW.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
>>>>>>>>> very clearly
>>>>>>>> show the locations of each operator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If some people had bothered to read information that is
>>>>>>>>> readily available
>>>>>>>> in that posting, it would not have been necessary to cast
>>>>>>>> aspersions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> During some periods of the contest, Alex even operated SO2R,
>>>>>>>>> using two
>>>>>>>> W4AAW positions remotely, from Washington State.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
>>>>>>>>> will agree
>>>>>>>> with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying to fool
>>>>>>>> anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair advantage.
>>>>>>>> We're just
>>>>>>>> being competitive and striving to do so strictly within the
>>>>>>>> rules.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 73, Mike W4AAW
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
>>>>>>>>> CQ-Contest@contesting.com
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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