OMG you guys are brilliant. I knew that already, that's why I asked.
Seems like I spent the last 50 years believing "if your signal has hum
when you turn on your linear you need to replace the power supply filter
capacitors."
But this is so much more educational. Thank you. I am confident I can
figure it out.
Other ideas are still welcome. The first thing I will do is to be
methodical about getting a better baseline.
MUCH appreciated.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 9/4/2023 2:22 AM, John Lyles wrote:
Henry Radio designed their single phase HV power supplies for the 2K and 3K
families of amplifiers using a single section L-C filter. But there is a
special trick in that the 8Hy series choke is resonated with a shunt capacitor.
This cap is critical and it works under stress being in a resonant circuit at
120 hz (100 Hz for 50 Hz powerline version). It creates a notch in the 120 Hz
ripple voltage and makes that L look like a high impedance at some load
current. All power inductors have some swinging of L as DC current is varying
so this resonance is usually chosen to work at the lowest operating current,
like idling current without modulation. Or key up for CW.
When in resonance or just on the high side as DC current through the choke is
low (L is highest), the oil/paper capacitor has large circulating current and
high peak to peak 120 Hz voltage across it.
As DC current goes up on voice peaks or key down, the critical Lmin is not as
important, as the RF load is in parallel with the bleeder. You can read about
critical inductance and bleeder resistor selection in HV power supplies having
L-input choke in old ARRL or West Coast Radio handbooks, and old Terman
textbooks.
Anyone, my point being that is this capacitor has failed or drifted off value,
then the 120 Hz ripple will not be attenuated well, at low modulation it may
sound like hum, which it is. Replacement of the 16-20 uF filter cap will not
affect or suppress this low freq hum if the resonant section is not working.
It's job is to attenuate the 240 Hz and higher harmonics, provided stored
energy for the peak RF demands, and help regulation of Vloaded/Vunloaded. To
really knock down the residual ripple it would need to be much larger.
Mark, i would measure that resonating capacitor first. Be sure to short it out
carefully for residual charge. During operation it could also be shorting out the
choke if it has failed; disconnect it for the measurement of both resistance
and capacitance. Report back here so we know what you found.
The cap must be carefully selected, so don't just grab any cap as a
replacement. Henry was remiss in not explaining the importance of this circuit
in their manuals. Resonant choke input filters were clever circuits but failure
can be hidden in them, no fireworks and smoke.
Henry, Harris, Heathkit, and Broadcast Electronics all used them in certain
amplifier models. I designed the one for Broadcast Electronics in the 1980s,
and it was a fun challenge for this young EE at the time, building power
electronics. I had luck of finding one of the original choke designers at SNC
transformer in Oshkosh, and we spent weeks perfecting the L vs current response
to work with microwave oven polypropylene dielectric capacitors as they had
around 4kV of AC across them at resonance. Being an FM transmitter, the only
requirement was to hold the voltage variation down when the excitation was
removed on the class C 4CX3500A PA. I never had a chance to do it for a SSB
amplifier though, a more complex design as you don't want to create an unstable
wobbly voltage at some audio modulation frequency or keying rate.
73
John
K5PRO
_______________________________________
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 15:37:41 -0500
From: r-emails@n5ot.com
....
I have a Henry 2K-4A console, and when I use it on the air, a few people
have told me my signal is not pure. One described AC hum on both sides
of my signal frequency. Another friend said I had "sidecars."
My conclusion is I need to replace the big (oil-filled) capacitor in the
power supply. I have a friend with an older Henry, I think it was a
2K-3 console, who had a similar-sounding issue, and he says he changed
his big capacitor in the power supply, but it didn't really fix the
problem. He sold the amp and I got the capacitor that didn't fix his
problem.
Two questions:
1. Am I looking in the right direction or the wrong direction? Any
other PS due diligence I need to do? Any Henry 2K-4A-specific anecdotes
in the brain trust?
2. My Henry has the factory capacitor from the 1970s, which is 20uf @
5000 volts. The replacement I have says "replacement for Henry
capacitor" but the values are 16uf @ 7500 volts. It's close to the same
physical size but not exactly the same size. It has a 2019 date stamp.
Guidance appreciated.
73 - Mark N5OT
On Sep 3, 2023, 9:05 PM, at 9:05 PM, amps-request@contesting.com wrote:
Send Amps mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Amps digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Test (Mark Bitterlich)
2. Henry hum on transmitted signal (r-emails@n5ot.com)
3. Re: Henry hum on transmitted signal (Steven Katz)
4. Re: Henry hum on transmitted signal (Mark Bitterlich)
5. Re: Henry hum on transmitted signal (Jim Brown)
6. TL-922 relay source ? (N4IJ)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 14:54:04 -0400
From: Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich@embarqmail.com>
To: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>, Amps <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Test
Message-ID: <TMSMTP03OCvux4Jf7zy0002183f@tmsmtp03oc.mail2world.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
That's three in a row.?If you have hum in your Henry Amplifier it's
either because of a flaw in HV filtering, or in the exciter itself.
Just my 2 cents.?Best of luck.?De wa3jpy
-------- Original message --------From: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>
Date: 9/3/23 6:35 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Amps <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: [Amps] Test Ascii test.? Did it come through?? Amps readers
disregard.Good day,73 - Mark
N5OT_______________________________________________Amps mailing
listAmps@contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 15:37:41 -0500
From: r-emails@n5ot.com
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal
Message-ID: <55b0c78fa738a3e981ee9997313b0c06@n5ot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
I see there was no content in my messages the first time around. I'm
not sure what the problem is, but the workaround is to use a different
email program. Here's what I wrote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greetings,
I have a Henry 2K-4A console, and when I use it on the air, a few
people
have told me my signal is not pure. One described AC hum on both sides
of my signal frequency. Another friend said I had "sidecars."
My conclusion is I need to replace the big (oil-filled) capacitor in
the
power supply. I have a friend with an older Henry, I think it was a
2K-3 console, who had a similar-sounding issue, and he says he changed
his big capacitor in the power supply, but it didn't really fix the
problem. He sold the amp and I got the capacitor that didn't fix his
problem.
Two questions:
1. Am I looking in the right direction or the wrong direction? Any
other PS due diligence I need to do? Any Henry 2K-4A-specific
anecdotes
in the brain trust?
2. My Henry has the factory capacitor from the 1970s, which is 20uf @
5000 volts. The replacement I have says "replacement for Henry
capacitor" but the values are 16uf @ 7500 volts. It's close to the
same
physical size but not exactly the same size. It has a 2019 date stamp.
Guidance appreciated.
73 - Mark N5OT
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 20:47:11 +0000
From: Steven Katz <stevek@jmr.com>
To: "r-emails@n5ot.com" <r-emails@n5ot.com>, "amps@contesting.com"
<amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal
Message-ID:
<BY5PR16MB40020A4B55AC971ACBDB4BE2DAEAA@BY5PR16MB4002.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What does the HV indicate in standby, transmit (no drive, just idling)
and key-down at full power?
This is key to determining if it's actually a power supply problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amps <amps-bounces@contesting.com> On Behalf Of r-emails@n5ot.com
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2023 3:38 PM
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal
I see there was no content in my messages the first time around. I'm
not sure what the problem is, but the workaround is to use a different
email program. Here's what I wrote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greetings,
I have a Henry 2K-4A console, and when I use it on the air, a few
people have told me my signal is not pure. One described AC hum on
both sides of my signal frequency. Another friend said I had
"sidecars."
My conclusion is I need to replace the big (oil-filled) capacitor in
the power supply. I have a friend with an older Henry, I think it was
a
2K-3 console, who had a similar-sounding issue, and he says he changed
his big capacitor in the power supply, but it didn't really fix the
problem. He sold the amp and I got the capacitor that didn't fix his
problem.
Two questions:
1. Am I looking in the right direction or the wrong direction? Any
other PS due diligence I need to do? Any Henry 2K-4A-specific
anecdotes in the brain trust?
2. My Henry has the factory capacitor from the 1970s, which is 20uf @
5000 volts. The replacement I have says "replacement for Henry
capacitor" but the values are 16uf @ 7500 volts. It's close to the
same physical size but not exactly the same size. It has a 2019 date
stamp.
Guidance appreciated.
73 - Mark N5OT
_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:08:40 -0400
From: Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich@embarqmail.com>
To: Amps <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal
Message-ID: <TMSMTP03OCb7NMT665800021b5f@tmsmtp03oc.mail2world.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Steve Katz mentioned:"What does the HV indicate in standby, transmit
(no drive, just idling) and key-down at full power? This is key to
determining if it's actually a power supply problem."It is also key in
determining if you're experiencing voltage drop at the wall outlet
where the amp is plugged in.?IMHO you need to somehow listen to your
own signal, so as to listen to it with a pure carrier versus listening
to it with modulation.?Yes, a bad filter cap in the power supply can
cause this, but so can a florescent light near the microphone wiring,
or even a radio sitting directly on top of a 12 volt power supply.?Dive
bombing a problem like this can become expensive relying on others to
reply to: "Can you hear it now?"??Beg/borrow/build another was to see
(scope) or listen to your transmitted signal. This will eminate a lot
of "possibilities", and give you a path forward, while learning in the
process.?De wa3jpy-------- Original message --------From: Steven Katz
<stevek@jmr.com> Date:
9/3/23 4:47 PM (GMT-05:00) To: r-emails@n5ot.com, amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal What does the HV
indicate in standby, transmit (no drive, just idling) and key-down at
full power?This is key to determining if it's actually a power supply
problem.-----Original Message-----From: Amps
<amps-bounces@contesting.com> On Behalf Of r-emails@n5ot.comSent:
Sunday, September 3, 2023 3:38 PMTo: amps@contesting.comSubject: [Amps]
Henry hum on transmitted signalI see there was no content in my
messages the first time around.? I'm not sure what the problem is, but
the workaround is to use a different email program.? Here's what I
wrote:- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Greetings,I have a Henry 2K-4A
console, and when I use it on the air, a few people have told me my
signal is not pure.? One described AC hum on both sides of my signal
frequency.? Another friend said I had "sidecars."My conclusion is I
need to replace the big (oil-filled) capacitor in the p
ower supply.? I have a friend with an older Henry, I think it was a2K-3
console, who had a similar-sounding issue, and he says he changed his
big capacitor in the power supply, but it didn't really fix the
problem.? He sold the amp and I got the capacitor that didn't fix his
problem.Two questions:1. Am I looking in the right direction or the
wrong direction?? Any other PS due diligence I need to do?? Any Henry
2K-4A-specific anecdotes in the brain trust?2. My Henry has the factory
capacitor from the 1970s, which is 20uf @5000 volts.? The replacement I
have says "replacement for Henry capacitor" but the values are 16uf @
7500 volts.? It's close to the same physical size but not exactly the
same size.? It has a 2019 date stamp.Guidance appreciated.73 N5OT
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 15:54:30 -0700
From: Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Henry hum on transmitted signal
Message-ID:
<1a07d039-cf6c-7d9d-3aa9-e1be09b96036@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 9/3/2023 1:37 PM, r-emails@n5ot.com wrote:
I see there was no content in my messages the first time around.
That happens when you send html. The server for all contesting.com
reflectors rejects it, yielding blank emails.
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 23:04:59 -0400
From: N4IJ <dougn4ij@gmail.com>
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: [Amps] TL-922 relay source ?
Message-ID:
<CA+Ht2hN5=UAkRH7Ks-D+_Ly2wLU8PuAjfDU6Xaq_jee0AyRcwA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Anyone know if there is a source for the time delay relay for the fan ?
If I find one I might swap both relays on the board while there.
S51-2403-05 relay
S51-2402-05. relay
I found a place that sells a drop in replacement board too. Anyone used
one before ? X54-1300-10CTR
Doug N4IJ
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Amps Digest, Vol 249, Issue 4
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