Amps
[Top] [All Lists]

[Amps] resistor between FWB/FWB and HV caps.

To: <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: [Amps] resistor between FWB/FWB and HV caps.
From: "Jim Thomson" <Jim.thom@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 04:37:46 -0800
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Maybe the other Jim VE7RF can give us some actual numbers on the peak  current 
from his calculator. I am too lazy to figure it out at the moment.

73
Gary  K4FMX

## This is a new PC  I'm using and I can't run psud.. just yet.. on this 
machine.

## However, I have ran hundreds of PSUD simulations in the past 12 months  at 
work. 

##  PSUD requires an input  for pri dc resistance of plate xfmr.. and also sec 
dc resistance, plus input pri ac voltage,
+ sec no load, output ac voltage, incoming line freq,  type of rectifier, fwB , 
etc, and also what kind of filter,
simple C filter, choke,   choke value etc.  Also what's required is the dc load 
drawn, [800ma  2 A, etc]
##  also required is value of C filter.

##  Psud  will spit out the Z of the xfmr in use, and also depict the exact 
waveform shape, every 8.3 msecs,
and will also show what this high current pulse looks like, both in duration, 
and level  [ peak current. ] 

##  here's  where I think a limitation of psud is.... and that I believe  psud  
doesn't factor  in the Z of the  240 vac 
line  from xfmr pri.... back to the street / pole pig in street.  

## the only way I could simulate the Z  between  pri of xfmr... and pole pig in 
the street was  to  calculate the total loop resistance,
and then add it to the  PSUD's plate xfmr  PRI  dc resistance.   Once u add 
that resistance in.... everything changes !! 

## typ, IF the dc resistance is discarded for a moment,  [ what psud wants]  
and just the pri dc resistance of my plate xfmr
is inputted .. [ .008 ohm]... and  sec  dc resistance of  same plate xfmr [ 6.0 
ohms across the highest tap] 
and with 80 uf  filter cap  [ simple C filter].... it spits out that  peak 
current through the  diodes is aprx  a whopping
15 amps..  [ with a 3A  load].     Next up was to  go to an extreme.. and 
increase C  by 10 x ...to 800 uf.  Peak current rises
only a TINY bit...  to  15.8 Amps.      However, P-P ripple is reduced  by a 
factor of 10 !    Loaded B+ is also higher. 

##  IE: peak current is aprx  5 x   what the dc load is. 

##  what PSUD  will NOT simulate is a dynamic load... like SSB.   And here is 
where  more C in the filter  makes a big difference,
better  dynamic regulation, and more pep out [as much as 8-10%] .  

##  Now here is where everything goes to hell.   Toss in the dc loop 
resistance,  between pri of xfmr, looking back through all contactor's
contact resistance, plus all 240 wiring back to main panel, and then the  drop 
wire into the house... and add  all of that  to the PSUD
'plate  xfmr  pri dc resistance'... and  everything changes.    Peak current 
through the diodes  is way down.  [30-40%]
I don't know if this is valid or not  [ adding drop line  loop resistance to 
pri dc resistance]

## of course,  with diode current being typ 4-5  x   the dc load current... 
this also is reflected  right back through the xfmr itself ! 
IE:   peak current on the  240 vac line.. back to street is also  4-5  x   
steady state reading [ clamp on ac ammeter] .  Now with
peak  currents  being  4-5  times average current.... you end up with one 
helluva  big PEAK V drop on the 240 line. 

##  To simulate the  25 ohm resistor in question  [ this may not be valid 
either].   I added  25 ohms to the plate  xfmr's
6 ohm dc sec resistance.   As  soon as that's  done, now it really goes to 
hell.  Peak current are way down.  It's like the
power supply is  gagging on itself.    Massive v drops.  Again, toggling C 
values  from X... to 10X.... u still get an improvement
 in steady state vdc, [static] regulation, but only a miniscule amount. 

##  try sucking 4-5  times the  dc load current.. through that  25 ohm 
resistor, and the Huge vdrop across it is nothing to 
sneeze at.   That's   a  125 v  drop.. with a typ ham amp [drawing 1A  dc plate 
current]   What it really does... is  impede 
current to the caps !     The caps  only get ..'topped up'   120 times  per 
second as is.  the conduction angle is really low ,
like  1.4 msecs  at the bottom of the base line... and narrowing down to just 
.4 msec  at the top of the graph. 

##  Ok, now  forget the simulations, either with PSUD,  or trying to 
extrapolate   from a 30 vdc condx.   I inserted 
a  25 ohm, 225 watt  WW...  between  FWB... and  B+ filter.    Regulation  goes 
 straight to hell, really bad. 
Try it yourself.  The more plate current u draw, the worse it gets.  [ this was 
a 3100 vdc  supply]
Or if you have  a 10-25 ohm resistor already installed, put a temp short across 
it.  

## BTW.. to make that 30 vdc test valid... you would have to  drop the load R  
in proportion, other wise you are not
simulating anything.   Install a 22 ohm resistor for the load on the output.. 
then re-run your test.. you will get an eye opener!! 
Putting a 2200 ohm res [= 1.3 ma load.]  on the end of a 30 vdc  supply isn't 
even simulating zsac.   U need a 167 ohm load,
just to simulate ZSAC  [ 180ma  @  3 kv] 

## another thought here.  The power factor is really bad  with a typ C filter.  
  That  diode conduction  curve on psud  looks like
a  square wave !    [ and ditto  back to the street, it passes through both  
the pri and sec of any xfmr]
  Use a HP  current probe and SA... and the 3-5-7-9 th harmonics  will amaze 
you.   esp the 3-5th.   All this harmonics generates  dirty
power back to the street.  It also increase the pri  VA power on  the xfmr.   A 
typ  2.5 kw  dc input  b+  supply, will draw 20-30% more VA
power on pri vs  dc input. Harmonic current's gets added to the pri current... 
but only partially in phase.. otherwise pri VA  power
would be a lot worse.

sri  for the diatribe

Jim  VE7RF 
_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>