Thanks for taking the time to reply, Gerald.
Thank you for the reply, Pete.
I played with the antennas a little more over the weekend after adding in the
5ft cable (well, actually 4 and change after the VF is factored in). All tests
with the two antennas at the same azimuth. I am seeing about 2 s-units on
receive at times, other times the upper and Both In Phase are about the same.
This is on 17 and 20m. On 20m I seem to see the most benefit. The BOP setting
really seems to drop down more so on 20. I actually did see some advantage to
the BOP setting when pointing towards EU and copying a VE1 station. So the
angle change using the BOP can have an advangage as opposed to turning the
antennas at times.
Overall, t h ere seems to be a slight improvement with the added delay line.
But nothing drastic. Obviously 10m has been dead lately, so no testing there
yet.
I guess over time I will be able to get a better idea of how well it plays
overall. But it would be interesting to see how it models out overall. Someday
I will need to master the modeling software.
Thanks again for the reply.
73
Eric
K2CB
----- Original Message -----
From: TexasRF@aol.com
To: k2cb@comcast.net, towertalk@contesting.com
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 3:44:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Method of calculating phase delay variation when
stacking two...
Eric, I don't see the answer being quite as complicated as all that.
If one yagi feed point is forward of the second yagi, the number of wavelengths
or degrees would be corrected by making the forward yagi feed line longer by
the amount of the offset.
a 5 ft offset would need an increase in line length of 5ft electrically.
Physical length in this case would be 5ft times the velocity factor. RG213 has
a v.f. of .66 so the actual length increase is 3.3 ft. LMR400 v.f. is about .84
so the actual length would be 4.25 ft.
No need for calculating degrees or wavelengths is needed.
This is assuming you want to make the two feed points in phase and the vswr is
low. Elevated vswr would introduce some phase shift but that is a whole new
subject.
The spacing you mentioned should work out very well. It is enough to attain
near maximum stacking gain on 20m. While more than enough for the higher bands,
the only consequence is somewhat higher grating lobes in the vertical plane.
The grating lobes are many dB lower in amplitude than the ground reflection
lobes and probably not even noticeable.
73,
Gerald K5GW
In a message dated 9/1/2013 1:30:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
k2cb@comcast.net writes:
Good Morning TT,
I have a pair of SteppIR yagis that I am attempting to run in phase. A DB36 at
91ft, and a 4E at 55ft.
The main reason for the two antennas is versatility to hop quickly between
bands, or point in two directions at any given time. Having the ability to
phase them together is and added bonus.... I understand that the stacking
distance may not be optimal, but it "is what it is" , dictated by the tower.
I originally ran equal lengths of cable between the feed point of each antenna
and a two port stack match box at the base of the tower, and ran with it. But I
recently did some more reading and came across a Powerpoint doc that WX0B
presented some years ago:
http://www.pvrc.org/Powerpoint/wx0b_files/WX0B%20Stack%20Presentation%202000.ppt
In the presentation, he states that if there is a difference in the driven
element locations, you need to account for this and add a "delay line" of sorts
to the leading antenna. So based on his document, I measured a 5ft difference
in the position of the DB36 and 4E driven elements. I ran the following
calculation:
Variation of driven elements / wavelength x 360 deg. = degrees of delay
needed, s o in my case the variation in driven element distance from the center
of the tower results in phase shifts as follows :
10m - 5/32.96 x 360 = 54.6deg
15m - 5/43.94 x 360 = 41.0deg
20m - 5/65.92 x 360 = 27.3deg
So based on the document, I inserted a delay stub of coax, as follows:
5ft x VF(0.87 for LMR400) = 4.35ft
I then also took my MFJ269 analzer (for what it is worth) and measured the
electrical length (not the physical length) of both cables using the VF value
of 1.00 per the manual , and they measured out with the 5ft difference, with
the DB36 measuring 5ft longer electrically. So I thought I had it accounted for
properly......
Fast forward to this morning, and I now ran across the following page by WN9O,
http://www.qsl.net/wn9o/Phaspat.htm#Figure 4
in which he describes stacking different Force12 tribanders. His calculation
method for his delay line lengths seems to vary greatly from what I see in the
WX0B presentation document. Whereas the WX0B document simply has you account
for the spacing variable of the driven element for both yagis, and convert the
physical distance to the equivalent coaxial electrical difference, and
insert this length into the leading antenna feedline, the WN9O document seems
to rely on detailed modeling to first determine the phasing variation in
degrees, then use the following formula to calculate the required coaxial delay
line:
Coax length = Wavelength / 360 * degree value from modeling calcs * VF of
coax
In his case, for 10m (since 10m is worse of all bands) = (984/28.4) / 360 *
114deg * 0.78 = 8.55ft
I noticed that WN9O used 984/F for the wavelength calc, whereas the WX0B doc
used 936/F based on his 21MHz system. I tried to apply the WX0B formula
against the numbers used in WN9O's antenna system to see if I could come up
with the same 8.55ft for the delay line , but I came up with a value of 3.5ft
based on his 4.5ft of difference between driven elements and a 0.78VF coax. And
a phase delay of 49.15 degrees. See the WX0B link, page 36 for reference.
So my question at this moment is - which is the proper method for me to
calculate the proper delay line length to properly phase the two dissimilar
SteppIR yagis?
Use the simple WX0B method of just measuring the variable between driven
elements in the vertical plane, and multiply that by the velocity factor of the
coax I am using, or do I need to have the two antennas modeled and then u se
the WN9O calculation method?
Unfortunately, the NEC and modelling software is somewhat above my knowledge
level at this time. I have tried to play with Ez -Nec a few times , but I just
could not get my hands around it. Please don't bash me for not trying... I
have too many other irons in the fire to attempt to master modeling software at
this stage in life. And my skills in other areas of the hobby more than make
up for my lack of modelling skills. I can troubleshoot and repair radios and
amplifiers to component level , just don't ask me to model an antenna!
If the latter is the case, would anyone care to offer some assistance and model
the DB36 vs. the 4E in my case, and enlighten me on how much of a delay line
length I actually should be using (electrically)?
Looking for comments or suggestions....
Thanks
Eric
K2CB
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
|