Hi Yuri....thank you for all your thoughts and trials on your antenna and
what you feel makes it superior to Yagis...truth is, unless your
comparisons are done at the same time, same location, same tower height,
equipment such as transceivers, amps etc, including feed lines and
connections such as baluns, etc your claims will only draw criticism from
most of us who know better. As it has been mentioned, share what you have,
as its really no secret, looks and appears to be a design that I have seen
and have tried years ago, the Quagi (s) but I may be incorrect here. Your
design has Quad elements and Yagi elements correct? There is no secret to
antenna design and yours is no different than mine and those who make
claims for short booms that blow yagis away, dual driven elements, whether
Quads or Yagis etc....they all have their place on the Amateur scene and
they all seem to fill the bill, so to speak, for amateurs given the amount
of land or location, financial status, where they decide to place their
towers and equipment.
I really have enjoyed this thread, seeing the real experts challenge you to
bring your design forward to place the numbers where they really make the
difference to those of us who know where the numbers should be in order to
be qualify your comparisons and beliefs about Gain, F/B etc.
Its obvious that your not going to do that, therefore, continue making
claims that are not accepted by most and you will continue to draw
individuals who know and will continue to challenge you to come
forward. Kinda "Hide and Seek" or for some a "Pissing Contest"...kinda
liked that one! Providing unconfirmed numbers and claims used to work back
in the 60's-70's and 80's when computer designs were not available to most
of us...noted the article in CQ is in the 80's, but today those claims just
won't work. The one I really like that seems appropriate is "Put up or
Shut Up", (seems to fit here). This isn't meant to offend you Yuri, but I
think you know what I mean..."its just a saying".
I also noticed and a couple of others have said, you qualify individuals by
callsign who tend to hold truth in the quad design theory...if your going
to do that, you might consider contacting them to see if they still use the
Quad design because some of them currently don't. I say "some" because I
don't know all of them personally but some I do, and they don't any
longer. Why don't they...well probably because they found out that either
design works pretty well for what they want to do and the overall anguish
of having a Quad design lends itself to location, location, location. If
you have the proper location, you can live with either design and they both
work equally as well but the Yagi works without the anguish of pending
disaster from the elements and one can sleep well at night. And lastly, I
can live with Quads being slightly better on paper but the fact is most
amateurs have yagis for a multitude of reasons none of which support the
claims of 10 DB etc. between the designs made by receiving stations. When
you use numbers to compare experiments you have made, you will continue to
draw criticism from individuals who know what those kinds of numbers equate
to or mean.... If those numbers were true and factual, all of us would have
Quads and Quad designs, possibly even yours. Your encounters with the VK0,
K1MM etc you mention mean nothing to support your design .....thats called
propagation nothing more or less. All of us, at times, have received the
same type of reports of being the only one heard etc....loudest signal on
the band etc. loudest signal in NA! Your not alone, we've all been there
but most of us don't talk about it in relation to our designs of antennas.
One other note...I seem to recall a article some years ago, and it wasn't
CQ with a design similar to yours...and maybe it was yours...I will try to
find it and if I do, I will post it to towertalk for all to view. No
promises here but I will try.
All the best to you Yuri and the group.
73's....Lonnie (NT6B)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At 12:26 PM 2/9/01 -0500, K3BU@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/9/2001 02:04:01 Eastern Standard Time,
>Jan.E.Holm@telia.se writes:
>
> >
> > Didn´t K3BU make the statement that his razor was 10 dB better
> > then the 6L KLM and the KLM was 10 dB better then the 5L Telerex?
> > Result would be that the razor thing was 20 dB better then the
> > Telerex, and 30 better then a dipole would follow the same reasoning.
> > Why pick on W8JI, I saw this in print myself , so Yuri if you feel
> > like picking on people you might as well pick on me too.
>
>
>Let me again explain or underline what I was saying.
>
>I didn't say "that his razor was 10 dB better then the 6L KLM" and I didn't
>say that this was real, actual and measured gain figure between those
>antennas.
>
>I said in the last email trying to explain what "kind" of 10 dB:
>
>" I said in real life tests. That means real antennas, with real stations,
>with real (inaccurate) S-meters, but being able to detect differences.
>Averaged over period of time, numerous tests, various directions, that was
>the rough result. BTW KLM 6 el. Big Stick showed also about 10 dB advantage
>over 5 el. Telrex. This is what it means, real life, not with scientists in
>white coats. This was the final verification of performance in real life with
>all those imperfections that take part."
>
>Again, this does not mean there was 10 dB difference between the antennas as
>it would be measured on the antenna test (or software) range, comparing it
>under the same conditions. There was 10 dB (roughly, averaged) reported by
>other stations when we did comparisons on the air, and as I mention with
>imperfect S-meter and other goofy things that go on in situation like that,
>but it is real life and that is what stations around the world reported.
>Tests were run between VE3BMV (Razor at 106 ft.) VE3HGN (6 el. KLM at 145 ft)
>VE3FFA (KLM at 80 ft) VE3MR (Telrex at 100 ft).
> So, please don't twist it around and do not interpret it to anything
>other than what I am describing. This is to illustrate how things translate
>into real life, band situations - that perhaps 3 dB of real gain, can "cause"
>10 dB differences in our imperfect radio world at the other end.
> I am sure that many have noticed that their signals "jumped" in strength
>more dB than they should have been according to "book gain". Some has to do
>with peculiarity of ionosphere in propagating our signals. Here we are
>touching another subject that I was "wrong", but I will leave it out.
>
> For those who care to read further, I would illustrate few (anecdotal)
>cases that made me feel good about performance of Razors.
> VK0 on Heard Island, blew the finals (6146s), transmitted through
> them as
>a capacitor running just 12BY7. I was the only one in NA who could hear him
>and I worked him.
> K1MM, when he fired up from Spratley, I was first NA station on the
> first
>page in his log. Rest of NA got through abt 2 hours later.
> When W2PV (stacked Telrexes on Bertha, 3 stack monobanders on 200ft
>tower) kept calling CQ at the early band opening to Eu, had small pileup of
>station calling them, without responding to them. I heard them about S2,
>being few miles behind him.
> The funniest report we got was from one Italian: VE3BMV - bomba atomica,
>five nine plus twony, VE3HGN - five nine plus ten, VE3MR - 59 (I got it on
>tape).
> Typically I found that "my propagation" was extended by 1 to 2 hours as
>compared to other non-Razor stations.
> Last, the contest results (which put kinda figures on performance of
>one's station) showed about 40% jump in my scores as compared to other
>"junky" antennas I had.
> I know there are many factors taking part in real life, but I never
>experienced similar situations with my TH6, nor anyone around me with
>monobanders.
>
> > Now, if those razor whiz things are so good why not publish the
> > data? If I would have come up with something that good I would
> > have been proud to publish it.
> > In any case, clames like the above I don´t belive at all, they belong
> > in
> > some kind a dream world, ohhh just remembered that back in the
> > seventies smoking weed was very common in the states, hmmmm
> >
> > 73, Jim SM2EKM
>
>OK, you asked for it.
>I was proud of Razors, to me it was what Galileo must have experienced, the
>whole new world out there. It made me think about propagation theory in the
>books, I did some thinking, observation and came to some conclusions, that
>perhaps not very accurately, but I put it down on paper in my article about
>"Conductive propagation theory".
>(see the CQ article on my home page:
>http://members.aol.com/ve3bmv/index.htm)
>
>CQ Magazine published the "faded" photos (twice on the covers) of Razors, I
>gave a talk at Dayton Hamvention, have it on my QSL cards. I didn't keep it
>secret, those who got curious and wanted to try them out, I supplied the
>dimensions, free for asking, against nondisclosure agreement and few were
>built. As I mentioned before, I considered them my proprietary designs, my
>"secret" weapon in beating the competition in the contests and I can do with
>them what I choose to.
>
> Just to shed some light on my "weird" personality, I consider ham radio
>precious hobby/sport. (I have lot to thank to radio, saved my life, helped to
>find my first love, helped professionally and was source of tremendous
>satisfaction, without directly making buck from it.) I have seen some of my
>friends poisoning the ham radio for themselves by getting into the ham radio
>business. I realized that I wouldn't want to work with radio stuff for x
>hours a day, and then come home to my hobby - (radio again). I am very
>serious about contesting (the only thing that still keeps my interest in ham
>radio) and I design, build equipment and operate contests to find out how
>good I can be. The "glory" to me is to see my callsign on the top of the
>listing. I share my findings, but I like to keep some edge.
> Maybe when I get to a point when I can't hack the contesting anymore,
> and
>will have time to write things up, I will reveal my "secrets." Those who
>ridicule me, are free to experiment and find out on their own, you got better
>stuff? Lets see you beating my stuff in the contest. I always admire and
>learn from those who beat me. They stimulate me to do better.
> When I get CQ Magazine with contest results and see my call on the
> top, I
>light up fine cigar by the fireplace, enjoy it and contemplate what else can
>I do to do better in the next one. That is my reward and "glory" (and respect
>from those who were beaten :-)
> I got hell from Steve for getting personal. So this is my last
> posting on
>the subject.
>It seems that people misread and misinterpret what I am trying to convey (my
>no good English?). I don't care what anyone thinks, I am not looking for
>"recognition" nor to prove something. I saw statements, I commented on them
>from my experience and what I know. If someone doesn't like or doesn't
>believe it, he can go and complain to the post office.
>See you in the next contest with some new Razorticals! Believe what you want!
>I am not selling anything, just wanted to share MY experiences.
>Sorry if I caused any problems.
>
>Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV, VE1BY
>Tesla RC N2EE, NT1E
>"who needs towers with verticals on the beach"
>
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