I fail to see why the standards should be higher for those who follow fred fish
than fred fish himself. I mean really! if you have to acquire
over-documentation of several rare grids from the other party, you are
achieving a much higher standard and achievement than fred fish himself. Any
party who has to submit video or pictured confirmation from another party
should have the next award named after him. And the winner will be the one with
the most documentation from the people they work. Of course we will have to
gauge the documentation via a committee where a notorized letter from a state
policeman or surveyor crew will be the gold standard. Permits to operate in
rare grids will be available for purchase from the Arrl once fees are paid,
operation site surveyed and markeÐ by authorities having jurisdiction and the
operation is placed on said mark with real time gps sent back to the arrl via
the internet . Of course this will not be public information as operating
practices need to remain secret, not to mention it could be construed as
spotting. Operation logs are also not public information as it may reveal the
secret techniques of radio operation not suitable for the general public. (Pack
roving standard circa 2005).
I'm done with the Arrl.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kiesel <k7cw@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:22:28
To: <w7cs@theriver.com>; <FFMA@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <k5qe@sabinenet.com>; <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>;
<vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu>; <PNWVHFS@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [PNWVHFS] Re: [VHF] Re: [FFMA] FFMA, DL88, and K5QE...
Chuck,
Of course, Fred Fish is no longer with us and can't defend himself against your
claims. I believe the majority of VHFers who were around when Fred was with us
would agree that he was a good guy and worthy of having an award named after
him.
Confirming a "false operation" is different from being suspicious about it. Not
knowing how it could have happened is not the same as demonstrating that it
didn't.
There are many places where official borders do not correspond exactly with
what everyday maps seem to indicate. For instance, the border between British
Columbia and Washington varies back and forth across the CN88/CN89 line, not
exactly on the 49th Parallel as many believe. That's one reason why GPS
receivers are necessary in areas near grid boundaries.
You may be incorrect about dishonesty about early digital EME contacts. For
those who haven't tried it, it would be hard to be a judge, I think.
73,
Paul, K7CW
----------------
From: Chuck Smallhouse <w7cs@theriver.com>
To: Paul Kiesel <k7cw@yahoo.com>; "FFMA@yahoogroups.com"
<FFMA@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Marshall Williams <k5qe@sabinenet.com>; VHF Contesting
<vhfcontesting@contesting.com>; VHF Reflector <vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu>; Pacific
NW VHF Society <PNWVHFS@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [VHF] Re: [FFMA] FFMA, DL88, and K5QE...
These suspicions reignith, if for no other reason than that many of
the activities of the award's namesake were often questionable. He
also was a hypocritical and vocal doubter. I was harassed by him
over a contact (2M), in the '60s, he claimed was impossible, because
he couldn't hear the other station, I was in N. CA and he was in
NM. I had a witness.
There have been some post award disqualifications by the ARRL, when
their suspicions of false operations have been confirmed.
I can recall of a proposed MS operations, from the AZ, NM, CO & UT
Four Corners area, in the late '50s, when Ed Tilton (50 MHz and Up
editor) cautioned the operators, to make certain that the station (or
at least the antenna) physically be moved into each state to qualify
as a separate State.
Late model GPSs have improved (although not 100%) the accuracy of
geographical points of interest, compared to early physical
surveys. Witness the current, and not resolved location, of the
exact location of the Four Corners junction of the states.
Unfortunately, not many amateur operators are totally "squeaky"
clean, as evidenced by some of the early digital EME contacts, and
the (in my eyes & definition) of HF contest and DXpedition
contacts. They are now bringing these techniques to 6 M.
This is life ! 73,
Chuck, W7CS
At 11:58 PM 2/28/2012, Paul Keel wrote:
>Hey, John -
>
>I wish you would submit for FFMA. It's one cool award and well
>worth displaying on your wall in a prominent place.
>
>To All,
>
>I hate to see
>all this bitterness come up. It was destined to happen, I suppose.
>
>I still
>believe in trusting hams to be honest. Why can't it be that we always assume
>that what someone states is the truth? Well, I guess we can't, so we set up
>evidence rules designed to make everyone honest. So, then someone questions
>whether the evidence is falsified. Shouldn't we assume that the evidence
>hasn't been falsified? If so, shouldn't that be the end of it? B I believe it
>should.
>
>Deep down, I hate this thing about having to provide a photo of a GPS
>readout to prove I was somewhere. That and photos showing the rig and
>surrounding area. Some guys will be dishonest, but one wonders why we should
>assume that dishonesty will prevail if we don't adopt rules to prevent it.
>
>I
>don't think I am naive to think that expeditioners give factual information
>about their locations and that they will do what is required to get to a
>difficult place. I think, for them, it's important to be accurate in this
>respect because they understand the value of their contribution, just as a
>competitor in a contest appreciates the value of winning without cheating.
>73,
>Paul, K7CW
>
>
>________________________________
> From: W9RPM
><john@w9rpm.com <mailto:john@w9rpm.com> >
>To: FFMA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:FFMA@yahoogroups.com>
>Cc: Marshall Williams
><k5qe@sabinenet.com <mailto:k5qe@sabinenet.com> >; VHF Contesting
><vhfcontesting@contesting.com <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com> >; VHF
>Reflector <vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu <mailto:vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu> >; Pacific NW
>VHF Society
><PNWVHFS@googlegroups.com <mailto:PNWVHFS@googlegroups.com> >
>Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:01 PM
>Subject:
>Re: [FFMA] FFMA, DL88, and K5QE...
>
>
>B
>Marshall, that is to bad.I know some
>hams in my area were anxious to try for the rare Grid, but I understand where
>you are coming from. Some of the reasons you state in your email are the same
>ones that until now I have kept to myself. I had my share of rude emails from
>some Hams regarding FFMA.Some questioning how I could work 488 grids just
>since 1997. I am home all the time because of my health, so I was on the air I
>said. They made me fell bad for accomplishing what I had done. Questioning how
>I worked this and that grid, and in one case saying that no way could I have
>worked CN73 on JT6M with W7CE. They said it was to great of a distance etc....
>And I got some of the same with EN85 on SSB. I even let others know that I had
>worked a guy there, and he was anxious to try and work others.
>
>Had a hard
>time getting a card from FN67, but finally did, and that
> was questioned
>also. I even waited for the other group to go there a
> few years ago, and
>they had an accident on the way, so that was out.
>
>At that time, I decided
>that I was not going to apply for FFMA at
> that time. I did feel that ones
>who had worked at it for years
> should get it. Days before the Internet and
>DX clusters and the new
> WSJT modes of which I used for skeds on the last
>toughest ones.
>
>Maybe someday I will apply, or maybe not. I enjoy this hobby,
>and
> have made many good friends. I have my cards all sorted and anyone
>can see them. I know I did it, and thats the bottom line.
>
>I do support FFMA,
>and anyone who accomplishes it, should be proud.
> As far as anyone from the
>ARRL or any FFMA officials; none of them
> have been nothing but nice to me,
>so I have nothing but good things
> to say on that side of it.
>
>73 John
>W9RPM
>
>On 2/28/2012 9:28 PM, Marshall Williams wrote:
>B
> >Hello everyone
>associated with FFMA....After I finally retired from business, I went back
>into Ham Radio with a vengeance.B I built up a respectable home station and
>then started working on the contest station.B I have won first place(at least
>once) in most of the premier VHF contests around.B I have won the CQ WW VHF
>contest 3 out of the last 4 runnings.B I have 2M WAS and hope to finish 6M
>WAS(someday).B I have 107 DXCC confirmed on 2M, but I have never bothered to
>do the ARRL's silly paperwork.B SO, I have done about all there is to do in
>the VHF contesting world.B When the FFMA first came along, I decided to put
>some serious effort into that, even though it was clear that I would never win
>the award myself.B I decided to work on activating rare grids in my general
>area, trying to help others that needed these rare grids.B Because I am
>retired and have the money for these DXpeditions, we have put on 3 very well
>done efforts and had 3 more
> planned in the wings.B
> >
> >I have been part of every one of the K5N Grid
>Activation
> Group's efforts in EL58, DL79, DL89, and finally
>the
> DL99/DM90 Winter DXpedition.B I have already spent over
>$1500 on preparations for the 2012 attack on
> DL88--currently
>the rarest grid in the FFMA
> constellation.B
> >
> >I have tried
>to be sure that the FFMA was actually a quality award.B I have done this by
>twice protesting operations or practices that seemed "fishy" to me.B The
>first one turned out to be a false alarm, although the circumstances were a
>bit off to be sure.B The FFMA "officials" have refused to offer up any
>comments or any "proof" of the second one.B I don't understand what they are
>doing....one would think that the integrity of their award would be of
>paramount importance.B I contacted Russ-KB8U who activated CN79, probably the
>rarest grid of all time, and asked him what "proof" was required that he was
>actually in that grid.B His reply:B NOTHING.B
> >
> >However, at this time, my
>relations with the FFMA "officials" are severely strained--see the emails
>below.B After my reply to their emails, I have heard nothing from them for 4
>days.B No "Go to Hell-Strong Letter Follows", no "proof" that the expedition
>to the grid corner in question was actually at that location, no NOTHING.B
> >
> >Hence, with a lot of regret, I am withdrawing all my
> efforts,
>equipment, and money from the FFMA
> arena.....this unless some
>accommodation can be found.B
> I will leave the door open on
>that....I really don't
> want to hurt the decent folks that are
>trying to win a
> difficult award AND I enjoy the DXpeditions as
>hard and
> as costly as they are.B However, I will not expend
>money, time, and effort in support of an
> organization/program
>that impunes my integrity(directly)
> and calls me a
>liar(indirectly).B
> >
> >Therefore, I have ceased my efforts on the DL88 grid
>activation trip.B I will instruct Bill-N5YA to cease
> building
>the special rig necessary for DL88.B I will
> cease my work on
>the Special Use Permit that is required
> for an expedition to
>the Big Bend National Park.B I most
> certainly will not
>purchase the $2500 worth of solar
> panels and the charge
>controller necessary for that
> operation(because the Park
>Rangers will not let us have
> a generator in DL88).B I suppose
>the $1500 already spent
> is just down the drain....
> >
> >It would
>be nice if a dialogue could be opened with the
> FFMA
>"officials", so that this issue can be resolved.B
> However, as
>I said, they have chosen to ignore me.B So
> be it....I suggest
>that YOU contact them and let them
> know how you feel about all
>this.B After a suitable
> time, I will take all this up with my
>Director and
> Vice-Director.B I suggest that you do the
>same.B Maybe
> like our wonderful congressmen, if they catch a
>little
> heat from their constituents, they might just pay
>attention......Don't hold your breath, I certainly am
> not.....
> >
> >Sorry to all that were planning to bag DL88 this summer,
>but that is the way things are right now.B Maybe this
> can be
>salvaged--I am open to suggestions.B IF you wish
> to contact
>me, please call or do it OFF the
> reflectors....
> >
> >73 Marshall
>K5QE
> >
> >THE RELEVANT EMAILS
> >
> >Recently, I received an email from one of the
>FFMA
> "Founding Fathers".B It is reproduced below.B I
>returned
> the following reply, which I sent to two of the
>Founding
> Fathers.
> >
> >Hello....It is extremely hard for me to
>know how to
> reply to this email and the thoughts therein.B I
>am so
> angry, that I just cannot really figure out what to
>say.....
> >
> >A BIT OF HISTORY:B
> >In 2009, our entire group(the K5N Grid
>Activation Group)
> complained about a contact claim made by a
>Grand Wizard
> of the ARRL that he had worked EL58.B Since we
>had just
> been there, we all knew that we had not worked him.B
>Said Wizard even sent us a card trying to get us to QSL
> a
>contact that had never taken place.B Somehow, I was
> "elected"
>to write in about all this.B It turned out
> that he had a
>valid contact with Uri, the tanker
> captain, that often steamed
>through that grid on the way
> to the Port of New Orleans.B OK,
>fine.
> >
> >In 2010, I complained about an expedition that claimed
>to have operated from a grid corner just SE of Marfa,
> TX.B
>Actually, it was not a DXpedition at all, just a
> single guy
>running around in his vehicle with 100W and a
> loop.B I
>actually went to that spot and it was clear to
> me that it was
>extremely unlikely that he operated from
> the exact grid
>corner.B He could have been close, but
> not at the actual grid
>corner spot.B I spent 2 days on a
> reconnaissance of that
>spot, so I know it well.B After
> some time, I was told that
>nothing was going to be
> done.B No proof was offered that his
>claim was valid.B
> Why all the secrecy??B Let's see his
>"proof".B Since I
> have been to the spot, I will know
>immediately if the
> pictures are faked or not.B If such
>"proof" is not
> forthcoming, then it will be clear to me that
>the entire
> FFMA setup is a charade.B
> >
> >In 2009, I
>participated in the first K5N
> DXpedition....to EL58.B Seven
>amateurs went to EL58 and
> operated for parts of 3 days.B We
>made lots of contacts
> and busted out butts, but I don't think
>that there was
> anyone that said, "Well, you weren't really
>there".B
> >
> >In 2010, we tried for DL88, but the roads were washed
>out and we had to operate from DL89 and then later from
>DL79.B Again, we worked some folks and had some fun, but
> no
>one said, "You were not really there".B
> >
> >In 2011, we did the great Winter
>DXpedition to the
> DL99-DM90 grid line.B We went with 4 very
>well known
> operators and had 3 local operators that assisted
>us.B
> One of those was John-W0UN, who is certainly very well
>known.B Yet the response that I got was that the League
> was
>possibly not going to credit that operation.B I was
>furious.B Every part of our operation was transparent
> and it
>involved no less than 7 amateur radio operators,
> most of whom
>where very well known, to say the least.B
> Then to say that we
>were lying about where we were
> located and that no credit was
>going to be given was
> just too much.B I washed my hands
>completely of that and
> told Bill-N5YA to take care of it.B
>Does the ARRL think
> that all those operators engaged in some
>kind of a
> conspiracy to lie about our location??B What would
>be
> the point??B We got NOTHING for our efforts....only the
>guys that worked us got something.B
> >
> >Then Sean-KX9X "warned" me that I
>had better have
> excellent proof for any expedition to DL88.B
>Who does he
> think that I am, Don Miller??B Did he think that
>I was
> going to LIE about that too??B Every expedition that I
>have made has been completely above board involving
> multiple
>well known ops.B None have been a single
> operator sneaking
>into and out of rare grids without
> permission of the land
>owners.B What is more likely, a
> group of 4-7 well known
>amateurs conspiring to lie about
> their location or a single
>guy who has no witnesses at
> all??
> >
> >As far as me purchasing
>a bunch more consumer electronic
> junk to "prove" that I was in
>DL88(or where ever), that
> is not going to happen.B I do have
>a cell phone, but
> 99.9% of the time it sits in a bucket in the
>china
> cabinet.B If it does anything other than ring when I am
>out of the house, I will shoot it.B I don't own a video
>camera.B I prefer to spend my money on Amateur Radio
> gear.B
>Speaking of money, I have spent about $17,000 on
> the
>DXpeditions that I have made so far.B It will
> probably cost
>between $5,000 and $6,000 for our trip to
> DL88.....all this so
>that I can LIE about my location.B
> >
> >My initial inclination is to just
>widely publish a
> notice that I am withdrawing from the FFMA
>world AND to
> publish a pointed explanation.B If the ARRL
>Grand
> Poobah's believe that I would spend thousands and
>thousands of dollars and many days of hard work just so
> that I
>could lie about my location, they need
> professional help.B
>Let someone else do all the hard
> work and spend all the
>money.B
> >
> >73 Marshall K5QE
> >Phone is 409-787-3830 if you wish to talk....
> >
> >
> >On 2/24/2012 10:14 PM, Founding Father 1 wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >B
> >Just
>wanted to once again give everybody the heads-up on this: ARRLbs bproofb
>expectations regarding FFMA portable grid activation claims went through a bit
>of an upward evolution last summer, ESPECIALLY (but not only) where activation
>from a 2-grid boundary, a 4-grid confluence, or a single rare,
>difficult-to-get-to grid is claimed.
> >B
> >Anybody planning to activate rare
>grids this spring/summer needs to collect plenty of relevant evidence,
>especially video.
> >Sean is real keen on video as part of a proof-of-location
>package, and he especially likes to see video of the operator operating and
>actually making a QSO. He also likes to see pictures of your setup and your
>surroundings, and of course the obligatory GPS shot showing latitude and
>longitude. Oh, and donbt forget a date/time stamp of some kind. If it
>isnbt an option to automatically embed it in a corner of the video display,
>pan away from the GPS screen to the laptop screen and zoom in on the OS
>date/time display. In Windows 7 itbs in the service tray in the lower
>right-hand corner.
> >B
> >If your cell phone or pad computer is so down-rev
>that it doesnbt take decent-resolution video, you might want to think about
>upgrading before heading out into the boonies! My wife and I talked Santa into
>bringing us a beautiful new white 32 GB iPad2 for Xmas this past year. That
>would be perfect! Or maybe borrow or buy an inexpensive stand-alone camcorder.
>I just jumped over to the Best Buy website to see what they had on sale, and
>found a little Kodak PlayTouch 1080p HD camcorder on sale right now for
>$89.99. Itbs probably not going to do everything you want for that price,
>but man, thatbs cheap! Of course, you can also use a USB outboard webcam
>(like the Microsoft LifeCam HD-5001, about $50, or Logitech HD C615, about
>$80, in conjunction with your laptop.
> >B
> >And read through those rules again!
>(www.arrl.org/ffma) Direct any questions to Sean at ARRL. (kx9x@arrl.org
><mailto:kx9x@arrl.org> )
> >B
> >Looking forward to the rox getting better as spring approaches and those
>first Es season openings in April/May. See many of you on the air soon!
> >B
> >END OF EMAIL FROM FOUNDING FATHER 1...
> >
> >MY COMMENTS HERE:B ALL of the
>things mentioned above can
> be faked quite easily.B The
>date/time on a computer can
> be set to anything that you
>wish.B The time in a video
> camera can also be changed to any
>date/time you want.B
> These things prove nothing.B Anyone
>with PhotoShop can
> take a picture of a GPS and change the grid
>display to
> any grid that they want.B This is all very
>simple.B
> Although I cannot do it myself, I have been assured
>that
> altering movies is pretty easy these days too.B Getting
>4-7 mostly very well known VHFers to lie about what grid
> they
>are in is NOT easy.B I would suggest that the
> "proof" that
>ARRL is looking for needs a bit of
> consideration.
> >
> >We
>provided several different GPS shots to Sean for our
>Rocksprings, TX grid line expedition.B There were 3
> different
>GPS instruments and they all said that
> Latitude was 30B0 0'
>0.00" and Longitude was 100B0 12'.B
> That means right on the
>DL99-DM90 grid line.B There were
> many other pictures
>too....most are published on the
> Grid Bandits DXpedition web
>pages.B Apparently, only
> when Bill-K5YG sent Sean a bunch of
>movies, did we hear
> back that our operation was going to be
>"certified".B I
> do not intend to have to mount a small
>Hollywood
> production just to "prove" that I was in the grid
>that I
> say I am in.B I don't own a movie camera and I don't
>intend to buy one.B Bill is a great videographer and
> enjoys
>that kind of stuff....I don't.B
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>--
>EMAIL: john@w9rpm.com <mailto:john@w9rpm.com> WEBPAGE:
>http://www.w9rpm.com/ Wisconsin VHF/UHF County Hunters: http://www.wivuch.com/
>DX and CONTEST CLUB: http://www.w9idx.com/ La Crosse Hams:
>http://www.lacrossehams.org/ AOL IM: W9RPM
>YAHOO: W9RPM
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