I think an important point to be made in this discussion, irrespective of
the merits, or lack thereof, of pouring into a form inside a 10x10 hole, is
that the hole has been dug, the form is in place.
The horse has left the barn, IOW.
So, how can he rectify the situation? Seems to me that he should have a
discussion with the PE. Seems to me he should also have a discussion with
the contractor about paying for the PE's additional analysis.
It seems to me that with the PE's help, he can pour this base and satisfy
the structural needs of the tower.
It's too late to NOT dig the 10x10 hole, so suggestions now how to fix the
problem would be better.
73,Kelly
Ve4xt
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jwpjj@aol.com
Sent: April-28-09 6:38 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Undisturbed soil
In my experience over the last 40 yrs of being a building contractor, I
believe IMHO that it would be bad practice to dig a 10' x 10' hole and form
a
5' x 5' box 8' high and then add backfill material after removing the
forms. If it were stationary, such as a set of concrete steps etc, then its
not
a problem, but with a 54' tower and antenna/s I feel this would be a
potential problem over time. I installed a 72' crankup a few years ago and
being
in the business I had available a backhoe that almost could dig straight
down the side of the hole, of course there is hand work, and what is wrong
with having a hole that might be a foot or so bigger then needed with extra
concrete at about $110.00 a yard for #3000 lb.mix. Its called piece of mind
when you hear late at night the wind howling at 40+ miles an hour and you
forgot to let the tower down before you went to sleep! Its called cheap
insurance.
John
ND1X
In a message dated 4/27/2009 6:14:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
towertalk-request@contesting.com writes:
Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
towertalk@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Morse Code on Google (Kipton Moravec)
2. lightning protection/power quality forum splits (Rick O'Keefe, TC)
3. Re: Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil (Tim N9PUZ)
4. Re: Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil (David Gilbert)
5. Re: Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil (Bill Aycock)
6. Re: Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil (Scott McClements)
7. Re: Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil (Mike)
8. Re: Morse Code on Google (john@kk9a.com)
9. Re: 6M Beam being weird (Mike)
10. Re: [RFI] where to buy FairRite? (Dennis Vernacchia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:29:23 -0500
From: Kipton Moravec <kip@kdream.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Morse Code on Google
To: scottw3tx@verizon.net
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <1240860563.25539.105.camel@red.home>
Content-Type: text/plain
Samual F. B. Morse was born on this day, in 1791.
But everybody probably knew that.
Kip
On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 13:07 -0400, scottw3tx@verizon.net wrote:
> Google has a morse code message on their site today!
>
>
>
> 73, Scott W3TX
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
--
Kipton Moravec AE5IB .- . ..... .. -...
==============================================
Four Way Test
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
- Herbert J Taylor (1932)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:37:21 -0400
From: "Rick O'Keefe, TC" <fredrick@tech-center.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] lightning protection/power quality forum splits
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <00ee01c9c76f$95478780$bfd69680$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Because the content of the Internet's only professional lightning
protection
& power quality forum attracted mostly LPS questions, the power quality
section now has its own forum. Electrical engineers and other interested
people may still discuss lightning protection and electric shock medicine
at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lightningprotection/. The new power
quality forum is at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PQ_Forum/.
Both are moderated, meaning no message gets posted unless a co-moderator
approves it as contributing information of interest, and the messages are
signed with name, business and professional affiliations. These are not
chat
boards, and rarely is advertising accepted. Answers are provided by
recognized technical leaders in engineering specialties so as to create a
library of technically correct references. The forums are explicitly not
substitutes for hiring a professional engineer experienced in the area of
interest to create a PQ protection system or to solve a problem, so we
don't
provide site-specific fixes for problems.
Some of the areas covered in the PQ Forum are surge suppression, harmonics,
UPS, generators, maintenance, grounding and earthing..
Regards,
Dr. Rick O'Keefe, IEEE, SME
AIT Technical Center
13014 N Dale Mabry Hwy #363
Tampa FL 33618-2808
813.505.7013
mailto:fredrick@tech-center.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:52:50 -0500
From: Tim N9PUZ <tim.n9puz@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
To: Dick Flanagan <dick@k7vc.com>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <49F60D12.6070001@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dick Flanagan wrote:
> My friend is being told that properly compacted back-fill is the
> equivalent of undisturbed soil. Is that true??
That sounds like something I'd want the PE who put his name on plan to
answer.
Tim, N9PUZ
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:19:40 -0700
From: David Gilbert <xdavid@cis-broadband.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
To: Dick Flanagan <dick@k7vc.com>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <49F6135C.3080003@cis-broadband.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I think that depends heavily on the type of soil involved, and how the
soil is compacted. When I backfilled under the slab of my house (behind
the six foot high retaining wall) I removed all rocks, laid the soil
down in 3 inch layers, wet each layer down, let each layer sit until it
was just damp, and then compacted each layer with a heavy duty plate
compactor. It took literally months to finish, but the resulting adobe
was so hard that when a 50 ton crane drove across it to install a large
rock it didn't leave any tread impression at all ... only a dust print
on the surface. Even as hard as the natural undisturbed soil is here on
this rocky hillside, that adobe I created under the slab is several
times more resistant to flow.
Most contractors, however, just dump in the backfill dirt and tamp it
every couple of feet with the backhoe bucket, and that is almost for
sure not the equivalent of undisturbed soil.
The biggest issue, though, even if your friend goes to extraordinary
means to compact the backfilled soil, is whether the building inspector
will bless it. Signing off on something that doesn't have engineering
approval (and that cannot be independently verified later) puts the
inspector in a pretty bad position. It also gives the P.E. an easy out
if any liability problems should arise later. In a nutshell, your
friend's contractor didn't follow the engineering drawing and, in my
opinion, has hung your friend out to dry.
73,
Dave AB7E
Dick Flanagan wrote:
> A friend of mine is installing his first tower. It is a US Tower
> HDX454. (I thinks that's the right number. I have an HDX572 and his
> is the next one shorter than mine.)
>
> He had the tower specs checked by a local PE for the requisite wet
> stamp needed for his building permit. The PE calculated and
> specified a tower footing of 5'x5'x7.5' in undisturbed soil.
>
> His contractor dug him a 10'x10'x8' hole and is going to put a
> 5'x5'x8' plywood frame in the hole enclosing the rebar cage. He is
> then going to fill the frame with concrete and when it cures is going
> to remove the frame and back-fill the hole with compacted soil.
>
> My friend is being told that properly compacted back-fill is the
> equivalent of undisturbed soil. Is that true??
>
> Dick
> --
> Dick Flanagan K7VC
> dick@k7vc.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:46:22 -0500
From: "Bill Aycock" <billaycock@centurytel.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>, "Dick Flanagan" <dick@k7vc.com>
Message-ID: <E4BEBE4592D747488D03375E5621FB9C@BillsNo2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
It does not matter what opinion the very BEST on TT has, the one that
counts
is that of the Permitting authority. Ask them. What they say is the
Gospel.
And- check the Bond carried by your Contractor. He IS bonded, isn't he?
Bill-W4BSG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Flanagan" <dick@k7vc.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:53 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
>A friend of mine is installing his first tower. It is a US Tower
> HDX454. (I thinks that's the right number. I have an HDX572 and his
> is the next one shorter than mine.)
>
> He had the tower specs checked by a local PE for the requisite wet
> stamp needed for his building permit. The PE calculated and
> specified a tower footing of 5'x5'x7.5' in undisturbed soil.
>
> His contractor dug him a 10'x10'x8' hole and is going to put a
> 5'x5'x8' plywood frame in the hole enclosing the rebar cage. He is
> then going to fill the frame with concrete and when it cures is going
> to remove the frame and back-fill the hole with compacted soil.
>
> My friend is being told that properly compacted back-fill is the
> equivalent of undisturbed soil. Is that true??
>
> Dick
> --
> Dick Flanagan K7VC
> dick@k7vc.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:56:46 -0400
From: Scott McClements <kc2pih@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID:
<dc722d260904271356w41335659v152e0958842649f6@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I just installed a HDX572 myself. Back-fill can be the equivalent of
undistributed soil if its done properly and then tested. The
contractor who gave me a 25,000$ quote to build a form, back fill and
then test the soil for undistributed conditions said that it was
better this way because the exact condition of the supporting soil
would then be known.
Ah, yeah, I just dug the hole to the correct size. It was 1/8 the
cost. Doing the hand shovel work down in a 8 foot hole is what makes
it dangerous and the reason most people want to build forms.
-Scott, WU2X
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Dick Flanagan <dick@k7vc.com> wrote:
> My friend is being told that properly compacted back-fill is the
> equivalent of undisturbed soil. ?Is that true??
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:20:11 -0700
From: "Mike" <noddy1211@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Compacted vs. Undisturbed Soil
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <007201c9c77d$f4cc29f0$de647dd0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Me to, I would be worried that that with the weight of the tower and
concrete, the fill below the concrete pour would compact over time and
become unlevel at the least and at the worst...........?
Mike, K6BR
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim N9PUZ
Dick Flanagan wrote:
> My friend is being told that properly compacted back-fill is the
> equivalent of undisturbed soil. Is that true??
That sounds like something I'd want the PE who put his name on plan to
answer.
Tim, N9PUZ
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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06:19:00
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:58:26 -0400
From: <john@kk9a.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Morse Code on Google
To: <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <AA5BAE08D43A440E9781D21D5E152049@Office>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I hope that all of the towertalk hams can decipher it.
To: <cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Morse Code on Google
From: scott w3tx
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:07:17 -0400
Google has a morse code message on their site today!
73, Scott W3TX
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:03:15 -0400
From: Mike <nf4l@nf4l.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 6M Beam being weird
To: "larryjspammenot@teleport.com" <larryj@teleport.com>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <49F62BA3.2020101@nf4l.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
There was a problem. I don't know by what serial number it was fixed. My
2nd PROII never had the problem, and neither did the rerplacement for
the bad one. A query on the ICOM reflector would probably get you some
more info.
Take a look here:
http://www.ham.dmz.ro/icom/ic-756proii-oscillation-problem.php
73, Mike NF4L
larryjspammenot@teleport.com wrote:
> I just picked up an ICOM IC-756PRO II at a local estate sale. Is there
some potential 6-Meter problem I should be aware of?
>
> LJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Mike <nf4l@nf4l.com>
>> Sent: Apr 27, 2009 5:36 AM
>> To: Scott MacKenzie <kb0fhp@comcast.net>
>> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 6M Beam being weird
>>
>> Scott MacKenzie wrote:
>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>> I have a 6M beam that is showing high SWR (10:1). I checked each
connector
>>> to the antenna by disconnecting and placing a dummy load. Finally up
at the
>>> antenna, I disconnected the antenna, and placed the dummy load as the
>>> antenna. Readings were 1:1 SWR. I then clean up the connector at the
>>> antenna, and retest. SWR is still high.
>>>
>>> I then pull down the antenna (K1FO or similar - not M2) and check it
out.
>>>
>>> With the coax disconnected, I check the connector - good continuity
from the
>>> center pin to the otherside of the connector (where the gamma match is
>>> attached.
>>>
>>> I check from center pin to ground on the conductor to see if shorted -
>>> Circuit is open.
>>>
>>> I check to make sure I have continuity between outside of gamma and
rest of
>>> antenna. Circuit is fine - and shows continuity.
>>>
>>> The only thing I can think of left is to replace the coax less shield
inside
>>> the gamma.
>>>
>>> What else can it be?
>>>
>>> I was hoping to get this up higher in the air for the summer Es
season.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>> The rig isn't an ICOM ProII is it? I had a brand new one that had the
6M
>> problem(un-beknownst to me), and I was assembling a new antenna, It
>> exhibited a very high SWR.
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:13:10 -0700
From: Dennis Vernacchia <n6ki73@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] [RFI] where to buy FairRite?
To: Kostas SV1DPI <sv1dpi@otenet.gr>
Cc: towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Message-ID:
<265781b30904271513p637dda3fr14fee40a4356b3b@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
*Kostas,
You can try going to Mouser Electronics for the clamp on type by going to
www.mouser.com and entering manufacturer's number in search window as I
know they carry several 31 mix
( and other Mixes ) clamp on type ( see info below )
Otherwise here is more info I hope will help you
73, Dennis N6KI*
*see below info and maybe pass on to others
( Info is couple years old so prices have surely increased since then )
I was in the process of making a group buy for our local radio club
of some -31 Mix Ferrite clamp on beads
that will fit tightly on RG-213 size coax and also be good for smaller
cables that I could
thread thru several times for efficacy. ( Hole is approx 0.400" )
I discovered that Mouser Electronics now sells at least this one
particular -31 Mix Ferrite
bead that works well for RFI problems per Jim Brown's recommendations in
the
past
on this reflector. ( These do well in place of 43 or 77 mix and I now use
this
mix from 160 thru 6 mtr band to resolve RFI probs with good results )
They are $2.70 in small quantity but drop to $1.70 for 100 pieces, so
get together with
a few buddies or your local contest or DX club and snap up the discount !
You can get to Mouser's order page by typing
0431167281
in Google search and it will be the first hit you get
or go to www.mouser.com and enter part number 623-0431167281
* * * *Mouser
Part #* *Mfr.'s
Part #* *Manufacturer
Description
Your Part#* *Order
Qty.* *Availability** *Price* *Ext.* * * *623-0431167281* *0431167281
Fair-Rite* *FERRITE SNAP CASE - RoHS: COMPLIANT* *
NOTE: Important !
I found one anomaly with these and that is that if you do use them to snap
directly onto
RG-213 type coax ( approx 0.400" Diameter) or coax with the same diameter,
the plastic shell that comes
with the bead has a slightly smaller diameter than the hole in the ferrite
bead itself and will not allow
you to clamp the bead onto the coax until you take a pair of diagonal
cutters and trim the
plastic making the hole bigger. Just a nuisance for now as I have alerted
Mouser and Fair-rite
and hopefully they will use the correct plastic shell in the future.
*
------------------------------
*
2.4 inch Donuts
If you would like to buy 2.4" Round ( Donut ) type, ( Fair-Rite
P/N 2631803802
)
and these are really great for really tough RFI problems, you can order
them
from Dexter Magnetic Technologies
I am not sure what their minimum order is but when I do my group buys
of 100 pieces
I have gotten a piece cost down near $3, though I hear the price will be
rising sharply soon
due to the price of one of the materials use in making the -31 MIX - ( like
going to $4.28 ea in 100 Qty ! )
DEXTER MAGNETIC TECHNOLOGIES <http://www.dextermag.com/>
800/775-3829
or go to www.fair-rite.com
click on PRODUCTS ( First Pull Down Tab)
then click on DISTRIBUTER STOCK LOOKUP
Then enter the part number 2631803802 ( 2.4 inch Donut -31 Mix )
and something like this info below will come up shopping who has stock.
* * 2631803802 * *160* *11/26/2006* * Amidon Inductive Components
<http://www.amidoncorp.com/>* * 800/898-1883
* * 714/850-1163
* *
Email<http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgsendmail.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=11752
&mfgID=4605&companyemail=sales%40amidoncorp%2Ecom&companyname=Amidon+In
ductive+Components&PartNo=2631803802>
* *
RFQ<http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgrfq.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=11752&mfgID=
4605&companyemail=sales%40amidoncorp%2Ecom&companyname=Amidon+Inductiv
e+Components&PartNo=2631803802&txtUserID=&mfgname=Fair%2DRite+Products+Corp%
2E>
* *
PO<https://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgpoform.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=11752&mfg
ID=4605&companyemail=sales%40amidoncorp%2Ecom&companyname=Amidon+Induc
tive+Components&PartNo=2631803802&txtUserID=&mfgname=Fair%2DRite+Products+Co
rp%2E>
* *2631803802 * *305* *11/24/2006* * Kreger Components, Inc
<http://www.kregercomponents.com/>* * 800/609-8186
* * 540/776-7890
* *
Email<http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgsendmail.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=14120
&mfgID=4605&companyemail=ferrites%40kregercomponents%2Ecom&companyname=
Kreger+Components%2C+Inc&PartNo=2631803802>
* *
RFQ<http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgrfq.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=14120&mfgID=
4605&companyemail=ferrites%40kregercomponents%2Ecom&companyname=Kreger
+Components%2C+Inc&PartNo=2631803802&txtUserID=&mfgname=FAIR%2DRITE+PRODUCTS
>
* *
PO<https://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgpoform.asp?val=yes&NAD__ID=14120&mfg
ID=4605&companyemail=ferrites%40kregercomponents%2Ecom&companyname=Kre
ger+Components%2C+Inc&PartNo=2631803802&txtUserID=&mfgname=FAIR%2DRITE+PRODU
CTS>
* *2631803802 * *211* *11/20/2006* * DEXTER MAGNETIC TECHNOLOGIES
<http://www.dextermag.com/>* * 800/775-3829* *- Show quoted text -*
*
**On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Kostas SV1DPI <sv1dpi@otenet.gr> wrote:
*
>
> *I want to buy a rather large quantity of ferrites
> I need clampon No 2631164181 abt 100 pieces
> i need also 2631102002 abt 30 pieces
> and also 5943003801 or 2631803802 (abt 30 pieces)
> By the way is 2631803802 suitable to make baluns? If not what ferrites
and
> how many of them must i use to make a 1:1 balun capable for 2-3kwatts?
> I sent an email to lodestone but i had no reply.
> Do you know where to buy them for a cheaper price or is there anyone to
> help
> to buy them and send to me in Greece?
> Tnx in advance
> Kostas sv1dpi
>
>
> ______________________________* *_________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi*
>
------------------------------
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End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 95
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