Amps
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [Amps] Tubes vs. Solid State (was) Expert Amps2K-FA:AnyOpinions?

To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Tubes vs. Solid State (was) Expert Amps2K-FA:AnyOpinions?
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 11:31:03 -0400
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
> Assuming a set of transistors mounted onto a dense copper block
> (copper, to avoid water contamination) and immersed in distilled
> water, it seems to me that these transistors could operate well
> under their maximum ratings with a lot of room to spare. Worst case
> is the temperature of the transistor substrate could never exceed 100
> degrees C, at least not very long. That is, until water is boiled out
> of the reservoir.

That doesn't account for thermal resistance (heat transfer between
substrate and water).  Although the heat transfer issues from substrate
to spreader/heatsink are the same in both cases, the issue still comes
down to transfer from the substrate/die to the cooling medium.

I suspect (without trying to do any calculations) that circulating
water and an appropriate radiator would be more effective than the
standing water/condenser or vapor phase cooling simply because the
circulation would provide more *effective volume*.

In any case, it would certainly be interesting to experiment with 8 ea.
VRF-2933 (Quadra or PW-1 with MRF-150 replaced by VRF-2933) or a pair
of Freescale/Phillips 1250W modules with water cooling.  The only real
issues are cooling system design and control/protection circuits are
well documented.

With 1 dB compression levels in excess of 2 KW, typical IMD of -35 dB
or  better and minimum gain of 20 dB (before splitter/combiner and
gain leveling losses), given proper cooling those devices should be
more than satisfactory for "legal limit" amateur service.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 5/1/2012 10:59 AM, Paul Christensen wrote:
>> "I doubt that ... the solid state devices would not appreciate the die
> temperatures with vapor phase cooling.  However, a small radiator and
> closed water system would work very well.  With a suitable pump the
> radiator/reservoir/fan could be located outside or in another room for
> essentially zero noise."
>
> Joe, good point.  It's an interesting thought exercise...
>
> I looked up the maximum operating temperature for the Motorola MRF150 and
> Microsemi ARF1500.  From the datasheets, maximum operating temperature is
> between 175-200 degrees C which is>  75 degrees C above the H2O boiling
> point.  As I recall, water can never exceed the boiling point temperature
> under normal atmospheric pressure.  Additional heat does not raise water
> temperature but causes steam and steam too never increases beyond the
> boiling temperature at normal atmospheric pressures.  But under pressure,
> it's a completely different ball game.  Added pressure raises the boiling
> point and the temperature of steam can get extremely high.
>
> Assuming a set of transistors mounted onto a dense copper block (copper, to
> avoid water contamination) and immersed in distilled water, it seems to me
> that these transistors could operate well under their maximum ratings with a
> lot of room to spare.  Worst case is the temperature of the transistor
> substrate could never exceed 100 degrees C, at least not very long.  That
> is, until water is boiled out of the reservoir.   This cooling system needs
> a means to monitor water level (as does the Alpha 70V) since it's so
> critical to stay under maximum temp ratings.
>
> A normal vapor-phase cooled system is vented to atmospheric pressure so
> there's no danger of rising temperatures due to rising boiler temperature.
> But as long as the transistor is immersed, the worst effect is generated
> steam that simply moves from the boiler to the condenser where its cooled
> and re-circulated in the vented closed loop.  That's the normal cooling
> function of a vapor-phase system.  So, if I've got my facts straight, a
> solid-state amp using vapor-phase cooling would utilize 1/17th the volume
> when compared to a water-cooled system, thereby keeping the system contained
> within a desktop size enclosure.
>
> Paul, W9AC
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>